Tara James, Exhibitions Coordinator at the National Portrait Gallery interviews Julian Kingma, Finalist in the Living Memory National Photographic Portrait Prize.
Julian Kingma. Video length: 43 minutes
Video transcript
- I guess we can just start off easy by telling us a bit about yourself and your photography 'cause you're quite an established photographer now, with a long career.
- I mean, basically I started, essentially as what was known as a cadet at the Melbourne Herald newspaper. So, I sort of went in literally as like a sheet kicker. Like, I was a darkroom hand. I originally wanted to be an illustrator but I decided that that was not gonna be a thing for me and I sort of fell in love with photography and then there was this sort of building, it's like, an advert for, well, what is now known as an internship but it was called a cadetship back in the day and it was, yeah, the Herald newspaper. So basically, I just sort of started in the dark room, printing other sort of photographers work. I didn't do anything except do that for the better part of maybe 18 months and it was a pretty horrible job but, but what it did do was teach me really, really good skills real quickly and I got to sort of, I was exposed to other photographers and so essentially that's kind of where everything started for me photography wise was literally, yeah, in the dark room printing other work for other photographers and then eventually, through persistence and me being very, sort of, like a squeaky wheel. Slowly they let me sort of do, you know, like the odd job and I do the odd shoot, but all the while I was still stuck in a darkroom. So yeah, that was kind of like where everything really sort of started and then I, sort of, left the Herald because it, sort of, shut, really, and merged and then the Sunday Age started and I sort of lept over there, but I was already a, not established photographer, but at least I had a full-time gig over there. So I was actually on Sunday Age for 10 years as a features photographer. But yeah, that was a really great 10 years in fact. I still kind of miss it, really. Yeah. So yeah, and then after that I, sort of, left and lept into magazines because again, the Sunday Age also, sort of, folded really. I mean, it wasn't an independent thing and it wasn't what once was and what was so great about it was that it was independent and then it sort of merged again and then, so yeah. Like I said, I went to magazines and yeah, started at the bottom all over again. Yeah.
- And now you sort of, you grew up this lovely balance with your work of commissions and your own personal practise as well, which can be hard to achieve. Like you seem really successful-
- Yeah.
- In both.
- Yeah, it is. I mean, it looks good to have a foot in each camp, but it's difficult and trying to sort of satisfy both needs is also quite hard. But at the same time, I don't mind being a working photographer. Like, I do love just doing commissioned work as in magazine work. I'm still doing what I love doing. There's probably just not that same flexibility. Whereas if I'm doing something for myself or my own project or something like for the gallery or-
- Yeah.
- Where I sort of have carte blanche because I set my own set of rules, whereas if I'm shooting for magazines, there's art directors involved and there's editors involved. But at the same time, again, I quite like the structure of that and I like working to a brief. Sometimes I'm not good with a brief.
- I mind the briefs.
- I kind of like to be put in a room and say, this is kind of what you got to work with. If someone says here, do whatever you want. I start to panic.
- I mean, you've photographed so many people, as well. Like, looking through your website, it's so many fields like dance and actors and chefs and-
- Yeah.
- Just like so many faces in front of your camera. It's pretty amazing.
- Yeah. I think I was lucky with the newspaper because it wasn't just one thing. There was always a sort of a variety of things to do every day and that essentially, it sort of stuck with me, really. I never really got stuck in one area. I mean, I do like portrait of course, but I'm not strictly, I don't consider myself a portrait photographer per se but I'm equally happy doing, sort of, document work but it's not my, I sort of, I do hip hop, you know, and leap from one thing to the other. So I think that's probably why I have a broad, you know, that there's a breadth of the work because I've never locked myself into one particular area. And plus if I do that, it doesn't work. Work-wise I have to be flexible and be able to work across a lot of different things otherwise, you know, I'll make no money.
- Yeah. And taking on those challenges sometimes is, you know, puts you out of your comfort zone and you learn and grow.
- Yeah, yeah, totally. I mean the only thing that I'm probably not is a landscape photographer. I do like humans, you know.
- [Tara] Mm. You know, there's times that I do like that solitude, but I do like having that sort of connection with people and it doesn't have to be one-on-one. I do love one-on-one-
- Yeah.
- But it doesn't necessarily, that's not, sort of, exclusively that.
- It's interesting though, 'cause "Tom at the Drain" is as much a landscape as it is a portrait or figurative piece, like the landscape-
- Yeah.
- Sets the mood and features so heavily in creating that mood that it has in it.
- Yeah, yeah.
- It just has a figure in it and a portrait in it.
- Yeah. Yeah. It's a tricky one because, you know, I sort of oscillate between loving having that, sort of, having someone on the tension, but then at the same time, I can see where I lean on my, sort of, past photography where it's, sort of, documentary work where I can see where I'm led and then, you know, I can have, like when I took that picture of Tom, I didn't know whether it was strictly taking a portrait. It felt kind of strange at the time because it, sort of, unfolded and yeah, I was in charge of taking that shot and I made the shot happen, but it didn't feel like say, you know, the Stephen Heathcote portrait where I'm, sort of, standing there saying, "Do this." I'm controlling the lighting. There was more variables and that it was just a nice kind of thing that came together, I think.
- It's interesting as well with portraiture, the sort of formalities of it, or perceptions of it are changing.
- Hundreds. I would agree with that, yeah. Yeah.
- And it might even be, you know, social media and availability and the quickness of images, but people-
- Mm.
- And just changing society, I guess, that people are starting to steer towards more open forms of portraiture rather than just the, this one.
- Yeah. Yeah, exactly, exactly.
- Sit up straight. Smile.
- Yeah. Yeah, and I'm sure that people have varying opinions on that. I don't have any strict opinions on it. I just think at the end of the day, my thing is if it's an engaging image and there is a semblance of a human being then it could well be a portrait. I don't know what those parameters are. I sort of wrestle with it, to be honest. But I don't go into a photo saying it has to be of a certain way to make it be a portrait. I just like to be interesting and engaging, like you said, and then, maybe that's all it needs to be. It's, sort of, storytelling as well and-
- Yeah.
- Yeah. It's a mix, it's a strange thing.
- So do you want to tell us a little bit more about your highly commended work , so the ?
- I knew you were gonna ask me.
- Got to throw in that highly commended.
- Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you. It was, kind of not sure where to start. It was something that, that action space where I took the picture, I'd watch that for maybe five years because it changes, the light changes and then kids would always be playing constantly. And for years and years, and I was actually, I'd ride my bike past there, probably every day for the last four or five years and it's this tidal area where it runs off into the water and it stuck with me and it stuck with me and, actually, Tom is actually a family friend of ours. I think a lot of people thought he was my son, but he's not.
- Yeah.
- But he was a family friend and it just happened to be, it coincided with COVID as what was kind of the brief but he was, sort of, hanging around there and he was kind of losing his mind a little bit, being stuck at home and there was, you know, that inch of time we were allowed to go out.
- [Tara] Yeah.
- So I just said, "Well, I'm just gonna go down there and hang around with my camera" and said, "Why don't you come down?" And then all of a sudden, sort of, like the light dropped, every kid that was playing there disappeared, it became very, very quiet and then it was just kind of Tom and I and he was just sort of playing around and there was just this kid off to the side and he was sort of goading and Tom with these rocks and he was throwing them at him. And what was happening was as each rock was hitting the water, it was doing that little-
- Ripples.
- Yeah. And I said to Tom, I said, "Right." I said, "Wait, wait, wait, wait." So I said, "Tom, just hang there for a bit and let this kid annoy you." And he was throwing these rocks and then I, sort of, got maybe three frames on the 5x4 and not knowing what I was getting because I, sort, of put the dark side in. I did one frame, I did another, and I was sort of, all I was doing was just sort of guiding and trying for this area of light. And then you see this little bit where he's, sort of, scooched under and I just said to him, I said, "Can you just hold that" and I was fumbling around the film and pulled the dark side and then just, sort of, and I actually yelled at the kid. I said, "Throw a rock at him." And what I loved about it was a, sort of like, a bit of a, like a cinematic little moment and then it was gone, you know? The kid had gone and the light had changed and it was just one of those things where it was a kind of like a beautiful, like a little thing and I didn't think too much about it being portrait or, I thought I had something nice. So I just kind of went home and, you know, thoroughly sort of processed it and, you know, and I had, in the end I think I had four dark slides and I sort of chose that one because, what we were saying, he wasn't looking at the camera. Yeah, it looked more cinematic and like I've taken a little slice out of time, rather than set something up. Even though I did have control of the situation, it looked a bit more natural and yeah, that's kind of what appealed to me is that it looked like it was, you know, like this little moment, which it was. But I was, you know, leading the dance a little.
- Yeah. It's really an interesting photo to sort of hear people talk about or their perceptions of it as well. Like, you and I have spoken a little bit about the judge's feedback and all the wonderful feedback you got, you know, with that really high horizon and the darker-
- Yeah. Yep.
- You know, it was interesting in the judging that even though it's called "Tom at the Drain," it wasn't 'til, you know-
- Oh, yeah.
- I think that last round of judging and it was like, oh, you know, about the rocks, the rock. And I said-
- Yeah!
- Oh, "It's a drain. It's like a drain pipe." And they were like, "Oh." 'cause it just looks like this big round rock and then-
- Yeah.
- The ripples, all those beautiful round shapes but then people's different perceptions of the look on Tom's face as well. Like, some people saw apprehension and then other people are like, "Oh, no. Like, he's looking up into the future." Like, it's so interesting. I think it's one of those portraits that you can tell your own story from. Like you said, a cinematic one, as well.
- Yeah. Yeah, I guess everything's up for interpretation, clearly. I mean, sometimes it's kind of nice to not know too much about something, but yeah, I mean, in terms of the image, that was the mechanics of the day. That's kind of how it played out. But yeah, it was only because I wasn't shooting digitally. There was only a few things that I knew were happening and it was just sort of fortuitous, I think, because it could have gone either way. I don't know what it was about that particular image that makes it what it is but, there's quite a few things, but I think that had the little kid that wasn't playing there, throwing the rocks, I wouldn't have had that and, so.
- Thank goodness for ratbags.
- Totally, thank goodness. Thank God for COVID. To be honest too 'cause if it wasn't COVID that area would have been just-
- Yeah.
- With humans.
- Yeah.
- And yeah. It was like, I do love quiet looking photography and so played into my hands perfectly. Yeah.
- Yeah. It is one of those things, like the impact on the environment of less humans is-
- A hundred percent.
- Incredible at this time.
- Yeah, yeah. Coming out of lockdown, it's frightening.
- Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's gonna be interesting.
- Mm.
- So you've been in the prize, as we said, like three times. And prizes in general. What do you think, like not just so much Living Memory. I mean, it's great for highly commended and I know you admire Bill Henson's work, but what do you think like, being in prizes and recognised does for your photographic career?
- To be honest, Tara, it's a bit of a tricky one for me because every time it comes around I'm sort of hesitant and it's not because I don't want to put anything in. I think that I'm probably quite insecure about putting stuff out there that's personal. I can hide behind magazine work and my day-to-day work because I can say it was commissioned. It had to be a certain way so that's kind of like an escape route for me. But when it's so personal, I get a little bit, sort of, scared to put it up there because there's kind of nowhere to hide.
- [Tara] Yeah.
- But I'm grateful because I think that what you guys do is incredible 'cause it opens a door for, you know, anyone. But you don't have to be a professional working photographer, like myself. It just goes to show that there's lots of great photographers out there that don't necessarily have a job to go to like, kind of, I do.
- Yeah.
- Yeah, I love that component of it but I personally have this sort of, this kind of fear, which is ridiculous, but it's probably just that sort of vulnerability of opening, and then you wanna short-listed and then you do and you go, "Oh shit!"
- Yeah. It's funny, yeah. I talked a little bit about it when we did the live stream of the judging and stuff like that. Vulnerability, 'cause it don't think people realise. Like, you are putting yourself out there to be judged and I think it's really important, like, someone of your calibre as well, still feels that. For other people to know, you know.
- Oh. Oh, like a hundred percent. Like, it rules my brain more than anything, to be honest. It's a scary thing. And the other thing is that you, sort of, then you're, sort of, putting stuff up to be scrutinised because that's how it's got to work.
- It's public and yeah-
- Yeah, it has to. And yeah, like when I saw Bill Henson, who I've admired for years and years and years, when I saw he was one of the judges, I thought to myself, "I'm a goner." I really didn't think I'd get anywhere. I thought he would just take two looks at that shot and go, well, pshh. So I was, you know. I was so happy because it felt inclusive in a world that I love, you know. I love his work and so, fanboy.
- I'm a fangirl too, he's amazing too.
- Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- Yeah, it's interesting 'cause artists are their own harshest critics, I think.
- Yeah. Yeah. I think so. I'd be lying if I done, you know, I've been doing sort of photos for the better part of 30 years and I still kind of will go to bed at night and not sleep, you know, based on a shoot and just worry incessantly about, it's not gonna work, it's not gonna look any good and you know, I don't know that I'll ever get away from that. I really don't. I think at this point, if it's not gonna, it hasn't gone away. I just get better at managing my anxiety.
- Yeah. Or hiding it.
- Hiding it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
- Yeah. It's interesting 'cause I don't know, like, it's quite philosophical, but would you wanna change it this stage? Would that make you-
- No!
- Not who you are anymore or that perfectionism would diminish?
- Yeah, I think so. I think in a weird way, I sort of rely on it now. It's a kind of an area, I mean, it sounds a bit pretentious but I sort of go-
- No.
- Oh, I think if I didn't have the fear, I'd probably, maybe I'd be a bit, I dunno. Maybe I wouldn't put as much effort in or-
- [Tara] Yeah.
- I do think it's a common.
- I agree. And not just, you know, in the arts as well. Like, I think people that strive for excellence, like-
- Yeah.
- I've got a background as a professional athlete and that-
- Who? You do?
- Yeah.
- Really?
- Yeah. So in that past life, your insecurities of competing-
- You've got your own.
- I view to that next level of, you know, the pursuit of perfectionism, I guess. So if I look back at that and I'm like, well, would I have I achieved what I, like, what I did without being so harsh on myself? Probably not.
- Probably not. And like, yeah. And like I said, and like what you to said then, clearly it's a common trait.
- Mm.
- And yeah, I am 100% a perfectionist, but not with other people, just-
- Yeah, me too. It's A-types.
- Oh, yeah. This is me.
- I'll just ruthlessly judge myself.
- I berate myself and just say, "My work is shit. Just put the camera away."
- I think-
- But, I know, it's a strange thing and it always sounds like you, sort of, you know, you're fishing for compliments, but it's really not that it's just-
- Yeah.
- It truly, it's a proper fear.
- It's like, don't compliment me, that makes it worse.
- Don't, don't. Please don't.
- All right. So how do you reckon, I mean, it sounds pretty obvious for you, but how has lockdowns and changes in the world affected your practise and the way you approach photography? I guess, professionally and personally?
- Personally, not so much to be honest because, you know, the concept of working from home, I've been doing for 15 plus years, so that bit didn't feel, and still doesn't feel strange at all. The only thing that feels, and the only thing that was alarming and still is, is how, particularly 2020, say March last year-
- Mm.
- It went from, you know, being a freelancer and trying to navigate that world and then all of a sudden someone's turned the tap off and work stopped, you know. So that was distressing just from a practical point of view because earning money.
- Yeah.
- And along with other people, particularly people in hospitality and because my work involves human beings.
- Mm. Yeah. You got family and-
- Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I didn't, you know, it's not like I was an accountant and I could still work from home and still make a living. So from that point of view, that was, you know, that was pretty horrific and still, sort of, is continuing to be horrific but the upshot is that, you know, the cliche of, sort of, reflecting on work past, present, future, but particularly past. I managed to sort of find what really inspires me truly and I had time to really have a good think about that and it was funny how my thought process went full circle back to when I was on the newspaper and how lucky I was to do that and how that was such a good time in my life work-wise and I realised what it was that I loved about my actual photography and it was actually quite simple and it was just me, the camera and anybody who's prepared to be in front of it. It was, you know, just really, sort of simplified my thought process. I didn't feel like I had to have covers of magazines and having sort of high octane work, I just loved the practise of being a photographer and it just was a nice thing to, sort of, remember, that I had a good job, you know, for columns and so COVID was a nice reminder that I love what I do, even though we're all traumatised by what's going on. Still kind of are, so. And then when Living Memory came around, it just fell into a really nice time in my head space, so. Yeah. So now I'm grateful that I entered. You know.
- Yeah.
- Yeah. I was in a good space, even though, you know, mentally in one camp, I was worried about the future of earning But then at the same time, I sort of found another love, like I fell in love with photography all over again. Yeah.
- Yeah.
- Hmm.
- It's been a common theme, I think.
- I think it has.
- That slowing down, you get so caught up on that mouse wheel or hamster wheel of continuation to stop and reflect.
- Yeah. Yeah. And the hamster wheel was one that was, you know, everyone seems to have slowed and is trying to teaching people's habits.
- Yeah. Like, I think I was emailing you about how I work in that art store and, you know, a lot of people-
- Yeah, yeah, I love that store, actually.
- To the arts and-
- Yeah.
- You know, writing letters and just, yeah, it's-
- And that's, sort of, nice human interaction, rather than just, you know, quick bits of social media or a little, you know, it was-
- [Tara] Yeah.
- Yeah. Like I said, it's a common story. It's not exclusive to me, but I did love knowing that my, sort of, past, sort of, had looped back around and re-inspired me in a different way and now I approach my photography completely different, as a result of COVID, mixed in with this prize, to be honest.
- [Tara] Yeah. That's amazing and-
- Yeah, it was kind of nice. It was a nice theme that you guys had-
- Yeah.
- To work to. It was kind of like, yeah.
- Well, I mean, you know, with that one, as well with, you know, it was just such a crazy time with everything that happened in Australia. I know, COVID's worldwide, but we'd been through the fires and all this, it just felt amiss to not address how that's affected artists as well, you know, so we sort of done the mentorships and the payment fee and all of that sort of stuff. Yeah. So it was a good theme to have, I think, a loose theme and the interpretations that came through from it were-
- Yeah. Yeah, it was really great. It was a nice way to, sort of, unveil the way people saw it, or interpreted it, or whatever.
- And so many little moments in there, you know? We've all seen the really big moments that are, you know, you're bombarded with, but some of those little moments are some of the most important ones.
- Yeah, but the nuances of it were what, sort of, struck me. It's nice to see the in between, like you said, the big impact stuff-
- Mm.
- Those little, you know, nuances in between the big stuff is what often what I find interesting, you know, humanistically, you know?
- Did you turn the camera on yourself? A lot of people turned to self portraiture.
- God, no. Never.
- Mark's been shooting up a storm of himself.
- Really?
- No, not really. He'll be like, grr, Tara.
- Oh, yeah. No, that sounds horrific. No, it wasn't that self-reflective.
- Yeah. It was interesting. There was quite a few self-portraits entered and I'm sure that will be the same for our painting prize where, you know, I guess as a form of therapy or self-reflection, and then a lack of models as well for projects.
- Yeah. Yeah.
- I'll turn to landscape.
- Interpretative portraiture, symbolism of Jul.
- Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Whatever that means.
- So one of the questions we always get asked, especially with sort of more established, well-known photographers like yourself, is your selected equipment.
- Oh, God.
- What are you faves to shoot we can use?
- As in, what do I use day to day?
- Yeah, whatever. You can tell us all your stuff.
- I'm the opposite, 'cause I'm not a gear head. Technically, I'm terrible. So I-
- I don't know about that.
- But for people who are vaguely interested, I mean, I do shoot a lot of film, but my actual working life, I actually just shoot on Canon 5D work. But I've had the same kind of gear for the last, I don't think I've updated my stuff for the last 10 years. Five years? Maybe five to seven years because it's at such a level now. There's kind of no need and I'm tired tight ass and, you know, and gear's expensive and I'm sort of of the opinion that if it is at a standard, then it's gotta be good enough, you know? That it's on me now, it's not the camera.
- [Tara] Yeah. Tradesmen blames their tools, right?
- Totally. But with my, sort of, film work, I've got a bunch of different cameras that I, sort of, use. Like I've got my 5x4 that I love, and I've got my Pentax 6x7 that I love and, sort of, always turn to because it's just this, sort of, mechanical way of working and, yeah, and I've got a like an old Leica and I've got an old Pentax, like a Pentax 35 mil. And, yeah, I mean, they're all such great cameras, I'll have them 'til the day I die because they've always been so great and the glass is great and the mechanics are great and kind of, up to me, you know?
- Yeah. It works.
- Yeah. Yeah.
- I think we touched a little bit on before, like the style of photography you prefer and it sounds like that's evolving or becoming more crystal clear.
- I think so. I don't think it ever changed. I think that all those people that I loved 30 years ago, when, you know, you have to, sort of, not become fashionable with your photography but you know, there will be styles and you would have to jump on and that was kind of terrifying. But I think at the heart of my, you know, the love of my photography has never changed, which is kind of nice, so. And I am a bit of a, sort of, you know, a nod to the old classics. There's no denying that, I mean, and I'm sure a lot of people are too but it was nice to, sort of, have that, you know, response, you know. It became more apparent in the last few years, all over again where, you know, I draw my inspiration from, you know, the old guys.
- So, who is that? What are the photographers and artists that inspire you or that you look up to?
- It's funny because I've certainly jumped from painters as well but I have this real thing with Jeffrey Smart.
- [Tara] Yeah.
- I always did. I also love Arnold Newman and I love Irving Penn but a lot of people love all that too. Cartier-Bresson's a cliche, personally, but I would be lying if I say that I don't flick through. But then there's, sort of, unknown people too. Like, you know, I don't know if you know the story about Vivian Maier, right? The photographer who no one knew and then she was discovered. A guy found all this lost film in a storage locker.
- [Tara] Oh, yeah. I remember hearing about this a few years ago.
- Yeah. It's extraordinary. Yeah and it's just incredible, like an exceptional photographer who died.
- Was a woman, unfortunately.
- Yeah.
- That's probably why.
- I dunno. I mean, she had a lot of mental health, but she just shot all of this film and never processed them.
- [Tara] Mm. Amazing.
- But yeah and Mary Ellen Mark, when I was younger, I was totally obsessed with her documentary work because I just loved how she got so deep into storytelling. But yeah, I don't fixate on one. I sort of oscillate between a lot of different ones, but strangely it just hasn't changed from when I was like 16 and picked up a camera. All those people that influenced me now were the same, you know, it's never changed. I've picked up a of all the oldies.
- Do you go to galleries much, like, in general.
- Yeah, yeah. When they're open I do.
- Yeah. You know. Come on!
- Yeah, no I do. I kind of love going to, and not necessarily photography either. Like, I can get, just as a contemporary painting or old European, just, I,
- Yeah.
- You know. I think that's why I like Jeffrey Smart because that's sort of-
- [Tara] Yeah.
- You know, perfect composition, but yeah. Yeah. I don't settle on one particular. Yeah.
- So do you have any tips for aspiring photographers? A lot of people would be looking up to, I think, when you look at your body of work and career.
- Oh, that's nice. Not tips. I just think that persistence has always been the thing. You know, and not to be that, I mean, I've got two boys that are in their twenties and, you know, I think that social media and I'm showing my age, and before the internet, you know, you just have to persist and work really hard towards something and I always just say to be really noisy and, you know, even though the insecurities get the better of you and as they still do now, and on, sort of, this side down the track, you almost have to ignore it and try and knock on a lot of doors and be okay to hear no about a thousand times, because that doesn't change. Like, really, it doesn't. You know, the a hundred nos I got 30 years ago, I still get today, but I just get better at, sort of, handling the nos. But I think persistence is probably key to anything. You kind of have to just, kind of, keep going and going and keep trying to find your own personal voice, you know, in amongst all the noise of social media, which is tricky, which I would admit, because I think if social media existed, you know, when I was starting out, I dunno how confident I would be about trying to what I'm saying now. Like, it's hard.
- Yeah.
- It's hard for people to not get, you know, dissuaded by seeing what they see and they go, "I'm no good." There's so much good stuff out there. It's a saturated market with stuff so possibly find my way, but I don't think anythings really changed. You just have to, blinkers.
- Keep going.
- Keep going.
- What about dream subject? If you could get anyone in front of your camera.
- Yeah, I kinda did and it was done and it was that photographer that I mentioned earlier and not many people know who he is, which is fine because, it's Arnold Newman, the photographer who I was referring to earlier was the guy that, when I was 16, I picked up his, a book of portraits and that was that sort of defining moment where I decided I wasn't going to be an illustrator, I was gonna be a photographer because I saw how I could be creative, but a whole lot quicker. And his work had such an effect on me and then years, and years, and years, and years later, I got a chance to go to New York and photograph him. And thankfully it wasn't a disappointment, you know, like, as they say, don't. Yeah, so I got to photograph him and it's not, you know, it's not a big name. It's not a Barack Obama or a, but for me it was great. It was a nice thing to have someone inspire me and then have him in front of me when I'm, you know, I was in my forties.
- Yeah.
- Yeah. And yeah, it was really lovely to meet someone who had such an effect on my work and still does.
- Yeah. That's circling back to your roots again.
- Yeah. Yeah, but terrifying.
- Looking at your website, you got some awesome travel photos. I was like, oh man, I miss travel.
- Never travel?
- Yeah. So many beautiful-
- Yeah.
- And all divided into countries. I was like, this is rad.
- Yeah. yeah, yeah. Yeah, it is. I mean, it's like, it's one of those things where I'm so grateful for that work because what a way to and how lucky am I to, you know-
- Yeah.
- To be told, just take your camera and go to these places and-
- So amazing.
- Yeah. Yeah. So it'll happen. Again.
- Again, yeah. I saw you'd spent some time in Chiang Mai. I liked all your Chiang Mai photos.
- Oh, I loved it. Have you been?
- Yeah. I do like, Muay Thai so I spent a lot of time in Sankampang, just outside of Chiang Mai, so-
- Oh, amazing!
- I love Chiang Mai. I was getting all like, sad looking at your photos. I was like, oh-
- It's funny, actually, you should say that because I, I mean, of course I have a lot of places that stick in my memory more than others, but that place for whatever reason, I love that place.
- Yeah. Me too. I've got a real affinity with Chiang Mai and I was just like, oh, you really captured it well, like that spirituality and like a lot of people see the, you know, the commercialism of it, but you sort of-
- Yeah. But just such kind humans, you know that kind of-
- Oh, yeah.
- Amazing, amazing people.
- Yeah.
- Yeah. Hmm.
- Very nice. What about any shout outs or thank yous to people?
- Oh, wow.
- [Tara] Going straight for the jugular.
- Yeah, yeah. I'll be a hundred percent honest and it's going to sound like I'm, sort of, blowing wind up your skirt, but I particularly am very grateful to the Portrait Gallery in general because, and it really does sound like I'm greasing the pole here, but it's not. I thought I-
- We've already got 11 of your works in the collection.
- Just being put on the spot. Because I just, I find that it's hard to find that, sort of, that, such support, you know? Like where it's that ongoing support and it's always this sort of positive reinforcement with work. Now, whether it's, whether I'm in the prize or not in the prize or whether I'm, sort of, watching it from afar, it is nice to see that because we are a very young country and we don't have a big, sort of, photography contingency, really, compared to the rest of the world. So it is kind of nice to watch that and to have that. And I do feel very fortunate to have the works in there. So yeah, there's a massive shout out just in general because, yeah, when you have that kind of insecurity in your work and you're worried about what it all kind of means, to have someone say it's worthwhile is kind of a nice place to be. So yeah, that's a, kind of a bit of shout out past and present.
- That's awesome. Thanks. 'Cause we are trying and it's good you see that 'cause we are trying to build that photographic community and, you know-
- Yeah, yeah. And like I said, it's so obvious when I've watched, like I said, even if I'm not in as a finalist, there's no person above or below. You'd be on an equal. You know 30 years or 40 years in the business or someone who's just picked up the camera and to see them get short listed and that sort of excitement level and then the encouragement from you guys that they get is kind of, felt pretty insane and you know, and rare. So it's nice. Yeah. It's nice to watch.
- That's awesome.
- Yeah.
- What about Jules' parting words of wisdom?
- Oh, God.
- Come on. You're wise. Give us the goods. You're wise.
- I dunno. Just try and ignore the noise, the white noise that is, you know, we get so separated by, you know, news, social media, and it's hard to not, you know, sort of buoy yourself up above. We're always thinking of what other people are doing and we don't have enough confidence in our own work to sort of push it along. But if it has to be words of wisdom, I think you just have to, I dunno, I'm not, sort of, articulating very well, but I think that you just have to try and trust your own voice visually and try not to try not to be dissuaded by all the trappings of social media, 'cause it is a problem.
- Yeah. In equal measure, it's great.
- [Tara] Yeah, blessing-
- But also, completely unnerving and you know-
- Yeah.
- Trying to hold your nerve in this industries is, doesn't go away and it's probably kind of nice for people to know that you don't get to a point where you're not unnerved 'cause it's constant unnerving, you know. Constantly unnerving and that's cool.
