Dion Georgopoulos

- If you wanted to just start by telling us a little bit about yourself and your photography Dion?

- Yeah. Well basically. I'm born in Canberra and I sorta start off my photography during college where I sort of basically took it up just to try it out. And I basically got super interested in it, and especially into photojournalism. And just sort of documentary, photography, and storytelling. That's sort of where that started. And then pretty much from there I just went directly to Melbourne where I did my degree my Bachelor of Arts in photography. And again sort of specialising that sort of photojournalism sort of storytelling area is where I was really interested, especially like news media and things like that. And that sort of brings us to now where I'm at The Canberra Times. And I work as a staff photographer for them and I cover all sorts of things and take all sorts of photos. Where it could be portraits, sports, you know breaking news, events, you know food photography, pretty much anything really. But definitely my focus for my personal photography is you know photojournalism really like capturing stories and capturing people and you know capturing those big events that happens in life. That's really sort of what I you know that's the photography that I definitely strive to sort of capture for sure. And as well portraiture is another sort of big aspect of what I do.

- So you're living the dream getting to work as a photographer and then doing your own personal practise as well.

- Yeah yeah well I get to well luckily with at The Canberra Times they're happy for me to also kind of experiment a little bit and pitch ideas for them. You know that can work for stories and usually in news nowadays since it's so sort of spontaneous you don't have as much time to work on those sort of long-term projects. But it's good sometimes if I can spend some time to do that. It's nice to bring something a bit different to the paper every now and then, bring a different project here and there. I think that's very exciting. And you know it's still an art form I think that should still keep going for sure.

- Yeah certainly. And have you been into being at Canberra a lot have you been into see your works hanging in the gallery yet?

- Yeah yeah I actually went on I think it was like the first day it opened I went with my family. And I remember this was like a few weeks before lockdown happened again. So I managed to go in there and look at the photos on the wall, 'cause that was the first time I've ever been sort of exhibited and had my photos printed out. So that was really exciting. And it was really exciting to see all the other works as well 'cause there were so many amazing other portraits and photographers and stories. And yeah it was just great to experience all those different pictures on the wall.

- Yeah it's different isn't it going into a big space and like going oh this is my work and reel and it's hanging here and. Your family enjoyed it as well seeing your work so must be proud.

- Yeah I mean they were really really proud to see those images on the wall. You know I think when they first saw those images I remember I came back sort of the motel that night and bringing out my parents and I told them sort of some of the photos they got and then they were really you know proud of the stories that were able to capture. And I think especially to capture the bush fires which was at the time was such a devastating thing within Australia. Such a seismic event. So having those featured I think is really important.

- Yeah and I don't know if you've got to see our panel conversation with Mike Bowers who's photojournalist extraordinaire where he touched a bit on we had Christine Morgan on the mental health side of things. And then Mike Bowers talking about the importance of covering those stories and taking those photos even you know in times of tragedy to share the story and to get it known.

- Oh definitely 100 percent. I mean definitely remember during that time you know it's sort of that weird give and take like as a photographer and especially as someone who is into photojournalism you wanna be as close to I guess the action as possible and you wanna be as close to the story as possible. Because that's really where you get sort of the intimate storytelling that you might not get, you know if you had to push yourself to get that access or to find those people. You know you won't find those sort of those stories I think.

- Well let's I mean that leads us straight into your works In Living Memory. So you've got two works which doesn't happen you know all that regularly that photographers get two lots of their work in there especially with our judging process is done by images first and foremost so. You know you have the Salway Family and then the Wandella Firestorm. Did you wanna talk a little individually? Because they're both such personal important stories to tell. You could start by I mean you could talk about it overall and then touch on the Salway family and the Wandella firestorm individually or?

- Yeah yeah well I can touch on, what I might do is I'll touch on sort of the order that I took the photos. So I guess to start of with the Salway family picture I might start off by giving you a little bit of background but basically you know we in Kabago it was one of the worst hit places by you know the black summer during that time. And about a week after it had impacted the region they wanted to send me out with a journalist Peter Brewer to cover just basically what had happened out there. We really didn't have many contacts. I think we basically talked to a couple of people which was the Kabago Hotel owner. He was an outspoken person in the community and at the time they had a huge sort of warehouse with all this stuff. Managing it, managing donations and things like that. And so those are two of sort of people that we had got in touch with down there. And sort of but pretty much after that you know we had some of blank slate. And we wanted to basically figure out how the community was going and just see what had happened after the fires. 'Cause this was only you know about a week after the fires had hit. It was incredibly fresh for everyone down there. And pretty much we were just driving around the region. And you know as we're doing that you would see people on the side of the road fixing fencing. You know you would meet all sorts of people. And you know we kind of got a tip off from the local fire station that mentioned you know that up the road certainly at Wandella way was one of the you know worst hit places. So we decided to go up there and purely by coincidence we saw what looked like a father and his son on the side of the road just with a quad bike basically fixing up the fencing and doing some work sort of around the farm it looked like. And you know we passed so many people but you know Peter Brewer the journalist decided like hey I reckon we should chat with these people. And so we got out of the car and basically started talking to them. And I mean Aaron was such an incredibly candid person at the time. And I think it's very clear that you know we didn't realise we were talking to Aaron initially. But basically after a bit of conversation Peter mentioned to Aaron about you know the father and the son that had passed away and if you know they sort of knew of them or had connections with them in the community. And Aaron basically said that you know that was my father and brother. And that the you know the child he was holding wasn't his son it was actually his nephew which was his brothers son at the time. And you know it sort of really took us aback that he was so open to talk with us. But it was so clear that there was so much work for him to do that you know there was really no time to grieve, and that his willingness to talk to media and to have his photo taken was incredibly generous. And I think you know those farmers out there are these super strong resilient you know people. And when it comes to these types of situations they just get straight to work. And you know he was sort of taking up the reigns and responsibilities of managing multiple farms now and he was very open about that. And it was just such a weird sort of coincidence to you know to suddenly meet you know the Salway family like that. But also you know you see the nephew running around and you know he kind of had obviously no idea what was going on the sort of a confusion for him, I think he was about two years old at the time or three years old. And just had no idea, you know just running around playfully you know ignorant to sort of the catastrophe that has happened. So you just had this you know sort of stark contrast between you know Aaron and his nephew Patrick oh and his nephew sorry Holly. And then after that you know it wasn't a long chat, we had a you know sort of 10 minute chat with him and then were kind of off on our way. And he we said goodbye and then we started going up the road because that's where we heard as well sort of some more I guess aftermath of what had happened. And after we met Aaron we sort of drove up and we sort of got a tip off that there had been a basically a fire storm or I guess a fire tornado that had impacted the region up there that had flung cars from this property and you know twisted them up and you know they're all mangled and things like that. I mean we didn't know too much what to think about that but we just decided let's just drive up and see what we see. And we started driving sort of long and you know talked to sort of the neighbours that are driving about. You know have you guys heard about this vehicle that had been you know sort of in this wreckage? And you know they're pointing us in the right direction and you know all around us it's just totally pitch black you know have this moody kinda grey sky. And there is no green or life whatsoever, everything is totally blackened. And as we're driving up this road we eventually see what looked like a car, but we didn't know too much of it if that was what we're meant to find. And then that's where we met Jade Corby who is the next you know person that I photographed for the portrait prize. And he was actually the owner of the property and you know we're you know classic media sort of running out in the back blocks of these regions just trying to find out what's going on. And you know he's initially a bit you know sort of confused why we're there but we got talking and once again just like Aaron you know Jade was incredibly sort of an authentic person. And he was very happy to chat with us. And I remember Peter had the idea to bring some animal feed with us that we could get a gift to some of the farmers if there was you know struggling with feeding their animals. And I remember you know we gave him some feed just as a gesture. And I remember after that I think sort of that small gesture was so important to I think breaking down some of the barriers to him talking to us and being open with his own sort of experience with the fires. And basically after that he you know we got talking and he was more than welcome to show us around the property which was his parents property at the time. And we had a good sort of five hours with him where we just went around into what had happened and the destruction. And as it turns out you know all these cars that were littered around the landscape actually originally sat on top of this hill which is where the parents lived. And so it was kind of crazy to think that the fires could've done that and could've flung like you know tonnes of metal across a landscape was really kind of surreal. And once again Jade was so open and obviously similar to Aaron was in that sort of state of I guess just sort of that state of just working. You know you gotta work, you can't grieve, you have to work and you have to push through it. And Jade you know he's a multi generational farmer and basically told us that basically all the family properties had been pretty much wiped out. I think there was one that was lucky to survive. But. Yeah he just walked us through. And you know he described sort of the events that happened before the fire. And I remember him saying you know the family was sitting there atop of the property and you know he could feel that you know this was definitely different. You know the air was different and he was describing sort of the jet engine roar of the fire. And I think that is something I did experience that sort of in another area near Braidwood but there is this you know when the fire is so intense it does sound like a jet engine and just roars across the landscape. And he sort of was describing that roar in the distance and he could see. And from his, especially in that photo you can see behind him is that sort of ridge line and that sort of looks on into the horizon. And he was sort of describing you know that ridge line in that horizon. You could see that you know bright you know blood red sort of sky coming through. And once you know he saw that I think that's immediately where he got his family and sort of decided to ditch his effort to protect the property. As hard as it is for these rural farmers to leave their land unprotected and to not want to protect it I think he felt that it was obviously too dangerous to do that. And there he is sort of pictured, sort of basically in the remains of the yard at his parents property. And basically there was nothing left, everything had been pretty much charred at the time there.

- Yeah it's incredible down there you know I have family down at Coolagolite like so just in between Kabago and Bermagui and it's you know certainly a tight knit community. And what you said the stoicism of you know helping each other and just getting on with it every day and they're still getting on with it now. You know it's still ongoing. Rebuilding and repairing and yeah. I guess the generosity of people as well to share that with you is amazing and for to agree for it to be in a prize as well. And to their stories their personal stories to be displayed is amazing.

- It's definitely I think yeah I think definitely they were just so open with us and willing for us to sort of come in and you know document that story. As hard as it is to do that soon after such a tragic event. And Jade. You know actually turned out you know and he was actually best friends with Aaron. So they you know they're these two you know farmers that are best friends that had both you know, and I think it's very I'm really glad that Jade's photo was also to make it in along with Aaron because you know both of them hold such a strong connection with each other. And they both hold you know stories about sort of just the really you know catastrophic event that happened to them personally. And obviously everyone else who had been impacted has been hit really hard. And but it was really nice to be fortunate enough to actually go back and do a follow up story with Jade and to see how life had changed. It was pretty remarkable to go back. I think several months after the fires just to see the landscape shift from this you know you can see in the photo of Jade Corby it's just got a black stark landscape, no sun. And you go back there and it's suddenly these green pastures because it had rained a lot over that time.

- Incredible. And the green growing on the black trees and.

- Yeah it was just this incredible like landscape shift even over a few months. And obviously. Jade had during that time you know told us that he you know had gone through he was able to go through that grieving process and able to express his emotions you know throughout that you know sort of that time and I think that's so important. And especially difficult for people like them because I'm sure they you know they're sort of the rough blokes that go out there and probably find it a bit more challenging to express themselves. But I'm just so glad that they find the importance of doing that and of grieving and of I think that's especially psychologically to do that is really really beneficial. And but it was interesting that he mentioned because his son was actually a little bit older I believe when the fires had happened. And I remember him mentioning that you know it turns out that I think his son probably dealt with a bit of trauma over that during that time as well. Something that I remember he mentioning he didn't feel like you know the son had felt very you know impacted because he was still so young. But months after the son would be like you know mentioning the fires and mentioning you know he might be scared and things like that. And you know he was mentioning you know him talking to his son about it. And sort of letting the son express his own emotions about what had happened. And I think that's something that we might not think about. You know the kids just as well getting impacted just the same even if they are very young.

- Yeah and even just through you know even if they're not physically there you absorb all of this. You absorb the emotions and see the pictures and yeah, but thank you so much for telling their stories they're such characters, they're such important stories to tell I think. So what do you think being part of N triple P and Living Memory your mean for your photographic career?

- Well I think for myself personally I remember especially through college definitely the National Portrait Prize is always something on my bucket list as to one day be able to enter and you know be able to exhibit for the prize. You know being a finalist is really you know is really chaffed when I heard that I'd been selected. And. You know I was obviously very proud to have my work shown. And most of all just to have some really important stories, be present for other people to see. Because I think you know it's weird that you know the black summer sort of rolled through and it felt like it rolled through so fast. And then suddenly you know the COVID pandemic hit shortly after the fires. And I remember even just you know a few months after the fires had hit, and after sort of one of my last assignments you know my memory is you know is fading. You know there was so much COVID news and I think a bit of that sort of black summer call to action had been sort of stopped a little bit. And it was really great that I think this prize sort of brought it back into people's minds that this is something that has happened. And it's something that we need to remember because you know it's such an important part of Australian history now. And it. I think yeah I was just yeah just to be able to share the story of the fires again I think is sort of the most important part sort of on my end. And I think I guess there's for a career opportunity you know I think my colleagues at work are very proud and they're very happy. You know very proud to say that you know we have a photographer who's now another photographer who's finalist in the portrait prize. It's obviously you know something that I look up to as a photographer you know it's one of those things I look up to to get my work into. Because it is such a important prize I think. And I'm sure many other photojournalists and photographers around Australia probably share similar thoughts as well. So. Yeah.

- For sure. So you can do a double tick on your bucket list now.

- That's true double tick yeah.

- Tick tick done.

- Exactly I don't need to enter the next year 'cause I already got certain one covered.

- Mic drop. So how do you think, how was lockdowns and all the changes in the world affected like your personal photographic practise and the way you approach it professionally and personally?

- I think fortunately for me it hasn't impacted me that much because as a photographer I already worked remotely within The Canberra Times. And so I'm very fortunate to keep working. If I was someone who was freelancing I think it'd be a very different story. I think you know definitely the amount of stories that we do has lessened a lot. You know obviously events don't happen anymore, sport doesn't happen anymore. You know there are so many things that the pandemic has sort of stopped for photography. And of course access is a lot more challenging because you know suddenly you're photographing people through windows. Suddenly you have to keep a distance. Suddenly maybe you can't be as intimate with the you know the subject that you could previously. So I would say definitely I'm very lucky to keep working and that my work hasn't changed too much. But I think it definitely offers its own you know photographic challenges and you know having to navigate through sort of a social distancing landscape with masks and whatnot I think is very odd but it's also really important to capture these things 'cause this is sort of that once in 100 year event that's sort of coming through that you know as photographers we need to capture that. And you know you see the photos that are captured around the world and within Australia and it's a totally different sort of a landscape to look at and it's a very odd. You know humans are so touchy and you wanna you know hug each other. It's really interesting to see people covered in plastic now hugging each other instead. But hopefully I imagine I know I'm very hopeful. I think over the next year I think things will slowly start getting back to normal as you know I guess people become more vaccinated and things like that. And I think for photographers and freelancers you know the world will open up a little bit more for them to capture those events once again. I think. Yeah.

- Perfect. So something we do always get asked by people entering the prize or the interested public is your selected equipment and the style of photography you prefer. So we've already really touched on your style of photography. What's your favourite equipment and cameras and?

- Yeah yeah. Well that's interesting I actually use basically all three brands. I use like Canon, Sony, and Nikon. So not really set on any one camera.

- Covering all bases.

- You know the work camera's are great 'cause they're like these old Nikon D 3's that I can just like you know rough around and like you know go to the most extreme places and I won't be too fussed if they get broken. And then there's my per, well I guess, so there's the sort of the breaking news cameras I guess you would call them or the work cameras that I use. And then. Which is what I used for most of the coverage of the bush fires. But for the portraits I used my Sony which is my personal camera, which is a Sony A7 mark three. And I use that generally with you know 20 and I have a 24 mil 55 mil and an 85 mil lens. And generally I pretty much stick around basically 70%, 80% of the time using my 24 mil which is the wide angle. One point four and then there's the 55 one point eight which I use for portraiture as well a lot of the time.

- Awesome.

- And then there's the Canon which it's actually my old Canon I got from college the Canon 5D mark three that was my first sort of big camera that my dad gave me as a present I remember.

- [Interviewer] Awesome.

- And I'm now actually taking that back up again and using it again because you know I sort of went from this 24 to 70 focal length and I only had that for several years. And then I sort of ditched that and went to sort of prime lenses. And now I'm actually coming back to 24 to 70 I think I'm really liking that. You know so especially for breaking news and things like that it's very important to have that versatility 'cause of obviously switching our prime lenses all the time isn't very realistic sometimes. So and then--

- So you're open to sponsorship by all three.

- All three, I can be sponsored by all three if all three need a sponsor. To one brand I think. Really what I think really the key is kind of I guess whatever camera does the job for your particular need. Because I think you know Sony I remember at the time you know often I auto focus and sort of these other features that were really good so I thought I'd pick that up. And then but nowadays really any camera is good enough to do everything.

- I think technology's gotten.

- We have iPhone entries you know? We have pros on an iPhone.

- I agree. Really all cameras nowadays are actually perfect for capturing images, it's really. I think up to now that everything's so good the photo quality really comes out at sort of the individual photographers eye and them to capture those compositions and things like that. And.

- Well that leads into the next part of the question is do you have any tips for aspiring photographers out there? Because it sounds like you knew you wanted to be a photographer and moved into it through college. And you're doing it now. So do you have any tips for people that are sort of aspiring for that career path? Or you know, not necessarily even just young people but aspiring photographers in general?

- Yeah yeah. Sort of a tough one. I feel like I sort of lucked out in sort of where I you know finished my degree and at the same time, you know a part-time job at The Canberra Times opened up and then I managed to get it and it sort of was like fate and destiny almost. But definitely the photography landscape nowadays and how I see it, I'm really a strong believer that photography is incredibly but nowadays if you do wanna be a photographer and if you do wanna work in the industry of news or just any photography really I think it's so important that people nowadays have to be multi skilled and multi talented in those different areas. You know when I was growing up through college I was very set on just being a photographer, I'm so keen just to do stills. I wasn't interested in video or anything like that. But as someone who's signed to you know trying to get into like more of that video side of things and learning how to do video, learning how to write, and learning how to do video editing. Learning how you know learning the digital landscape, learning social media. You know photographers aren't just photographer, becoming multimedia specialists. And I think they have to be to sort of adapt to you know all the different platforms that we have to present on and all the different mediums that we have to present on. You know you can use GIFS, you can use images, you can use video, short video, photos, I think there's so many styles that nowadays. And I think if you are just sticking to one style I think you're sort of selling yourself short. And you will definitely become less employable if you aren't branching out into other areas and exploring those other avenues. Because if you're multi skilled and multi talented you are valued a lot more and you can do a lot more things. And if means if you can do a lot more of those things if you do wanna do just that photography that your heart's so set on it's a lot easier to earn the bread through those other things and then you can go back and do sort of that personal work that really sort of feeds the soul. You know. I think that's my piece of advice is sort of adaptability I think.

- Yeah and being not afraid to experiment and you know always to remember have fun as well. Sometimes I think to play and try different things is always important.

- Definitely yeah yeah.

- So. Do you have any photographers or artists in general that inspire you or that you look up to?

- Definitely. I would think, I remember when I was growing up I really sort of James Nachtwey, he was really sort of inspirational photographer. And you know the classic Steve McCurry. He you know both of these guys are sort of like these brilliant photojournalists in their prime. And I think James is you know he's still doing stuff. And he's a brilliant photographer. And I just loved you know those are the kind of I guess I feel like in the photojournalists space and then you have like they're like my idols I guess originally. But I think you know initially I think they really taught me about storytelling and the importance of photography. And capturing those stories and capturing and documenting I think really just documenting I guess life and history. I think photography is such a weird thing because especially in sort of the photojournalism space because we as photographers if you're in a very traumatic situation for example or a very catastrophic event we're there to capture it through photos but we're not actually you know physically there helping out within a situation that might be you know someone's in a car accident, I need to take the photo, I can't be the one helping that individual. And I think it's a very weird moral dilemma that I think photojournalists must go through. And I know these photographers especially sort of taught me, I mean there's so many others like Robert Caburn, all the magnificent photographers. And you know Henri Cartier-Bresson I was really into street photography but. You know they sort of teach you the importance of documentation in that capturing that moment and you're archiving that moment. And obviously there are times where you know throughout the bush fires where I might think you know people might look down on you because you're not doing that much you're just sitting there taking photos. And. But. It's so important to have that awareness and to show people what is going on in the world. And I think it's an interesting moral dilemma that you know I'm definitely about for taking that you know it's a hard thing, sometimes it's a fine line. But you have to document and you have to you know archive what's going on around you and that's what we do as photographers. And if you're not doing that and if you suddenly put your camera down because you don't feel comfortable you know you're not telling that story. So you really have to push yourself and to have your camera and if someone yells at you then that's fine you just have to deal with it and you have to keep going and you have to keep taking those photos even though it might be so hard to do that. You know I think don't feel awkward or uncomfortable if you have to take those photos sometimes. They need to be taken. And you'll find that you can take the image and then you come back later and you know people are so happy that that moment was captured or they're so grateful that they can remember that and memorialise that and that can be shared with others. And you know it becomes a part of history.

- Cool so do you remember the first photo you ever took? Like do you have a conscious memory of the first photo you ever took?

- Oh that's very challenging. Well I mean I guess oh I can't probably can't remember the very first image I've ever taken. But.

- Or a conscious memory--

- Probably.

- Of like oh I've taken this photo.

- Probably when I got I remember I my dad had this old sort of like film camera. I never really used that but I remember there was this like competition at school where you could you just had to make a poster an environmental poster about you know saving the planet. And I remember I submitted my poster and the prize was you won like a little digital camera really like at the time these digital cameras were like big potatoes and it would just be like one giant pixel on the screen. And I remember I was fortunate to win that competition, and got this little camera. And I remember just going around and just taking photos of like the back yard like flowers and things like that and random things. And but probably the most significant maybe first images I guess my grandfather gave me his little like Nikon camera, and I just went around the reserve and took photos of like the kangaroos back there. And I remember there was like this one shot of like a portrait of this kangaroo and like sunlit by the sun it was just like I remember at the time I was very proud of myself to get that photo 'cause it was I thought it was a very beautiful photo. And the way the sun was hitting the kangaroo and yeah it was just something different so that was sort of my best first image would be a photo of a kangaroo.

- Awesome so a portrait of sorts.

- A portrait yeah pretty much a portrait.

- Cool so do you have a dream subject? Someone that if you could get anyone in the world in front of your camera who would it be?

- Okay.

- These are meant to be the easy light questions.

- It's another tough one I feel like these are the tough ones here. Oh. Forget anyone. I feel like Trump would be a really cool person to take a photo of. He's such a character and I think as a photographer we sort of strive to take photos of characters and of people who have sort of you know they're unique in their own way. And I think and I remember Trump is such an outspoken person and I think that'd be such a wild portrait shoot to do with a person like him, it would just be so crazy I think. So I think really I mean it could be I mean he's just he's an interesting character and I think I like him as a character. And. As a subject of a portrait I think would be interesting. And I guess maybe Elon Musk would be really cool as well I feel like he has he would give a really interesting technical face probably for the portrait shoot.

- I think both of those shoots would be quite the circus.

- I feel like both would be interesting, I'm sure both would be really interesting. Yeah. Yeah it's hard I mean. Yeah probably just someone who sort of embodies their own you know is just so unique and I guess and can has that unique personality and that can offer something different to a portrait shoot. Because it's obviously very difficult sometimes to take photos of people who aren't used to having their photo taken. I'm not someone who takes photos of people who are used to having their photo taken very often. Normally I'm taking photos of people who don't have their photo taken very often. But I wanna it's sort of a balancing act you know I think it's hard to think I mean Trump would be so interesting to take a photo of and like Elon Musk or like any of those people.

- [Interviewer] Larger than life characters.

- Kinda like these yeah larger than life characters, you know ones could be controversial, the other one's you know breaking technological ground. So yeah I guess that would be something for me you know that'd be something I would be interested in taking a portrait of I think would be someone like that. Just to see what it's like. Because I haven't really done that before so.

- We're far reaching but maybe not to the Elon Musk realm so.

- Yeah maybe not to his realm.

- Not quite yet.

- Who knows, maybe.

- He could be looking at Living Memory right now who knows.

- He could be, he could be.

- All right so any do you have any shout outs or thank yous that you wanna get out to people?

- Oh probably just I think a big shout out probably just to I guess firstly to the people you know Aaron and Jade for being so open when we're out there to capture their story. And I guess to especially to sort of the team at The Canberra Times for letting me go out and being open for me to do the you know this type of assignment. Because. You know we had some more senior photographers and they were happy for me as one of the younger photographers to go out and to capture some of this breaking news. And I was really fortunate that they were open to letting me do that. Especially going out to one of these events like this for a first time can be very daunting. But I think mentally I was definitely very ready to do this type of work. So I would love to thank them for letting me do that and obviously mom and dad also, very very proud of me. So they definitely deserve a shout out and my family they're incredibly supportive. You know they're nonstop, you know my dad saw I took an interest in photography so he started you know going out of his way to you know help me out to be the one to buy my first sort of real camera I guess. And just to support me in that area. Even at times where there might've been some questionable you know times during university where oh you know you sort of question yourself and you doubt. Is this what I wanna do? Is this the direction I wanna go? But yeah I think they've been the ones the people that have pushed me and enabled me to do this. So yeah.

- Awesome.

- That's who I thank.

- Perfect. So do you have any parting, that's nearly it, but do you have any beyond parting words of wisdom to finish the interview? It can be anything.

- Parting words of wisdom. I think okay I reckon to give you some wisdom I think what has really helped as a photographer doing portraiture this is sort of a tip a tip a photography tip. And it's something I learnt from a portrait photographer Peter Hurley. He had this great tip where he said you know during a portrait session don't tell people to smile. It's like the forbidden S word. And I remember pretty early on I started to took that sort of roll on to not tell people to smile. And I can't tell you how impactful this very tiny rule has been I think for my photography. And just being a better conversationalist. Because as photographers, as much as you are a photographer you have to be someone who can create conversation, someone who can create relationships in very short notice, someone that can be relatable, someone who you know who can be warm and approachable is really important. And you know just the you know and people are so you know tuned in to the word smile. You know you're taking a photo of someone and they're like they're sitting there and they're saying you know should I smile, what should I do? And that's where you as the photographer could say okay yeah yes give me a big smile, that's all right. But instead of saying that you talk to them and you just talk about it could be anything from their children to you know a funny moment that you experienced. But being a conversationalist in those situations makes you a far better photographer because you sort of break down those barriers of the individual. And you can just have fun with it you know. You sort of the most successful photos I find that I have are ones where the person after the shoot you know I say "okay we're all done" and they say something along the lines of like "what do mean we're done? "Did you even take any photos?" Like they weren't even present or aware that you know I guess photos were happening. And I'm a big proponent of talking during a portrait shoot. And obviously if it's a more positive story I wanna keep that dialogue going. And you can find those sort of micro moments, micro expressions and that's why you wanna take those images where you get those unique sort of I guess unguarded moments as photographers would say. Where you have a genuine smile or a genuine emotion out of someone you know is really key to getting those strong portraits. And when it's those moments that are a bit more sombre maybe you don't need to talk as much. Or maybe they can reflect on their experiences that they've been going through and they can just talk. You don't even need to say a word, you can just sit and listen. So that's probably one of my golden nuggets of wisdom so.