In Conversation

- Hello everyone, and welcome to The National Portrait Galley. We're so excited to bring this conversation to you today between two amazing women who we're going to introduce just very shortly. Before we begin I'd just like to give you a couple of tips, so that you enjoy the experience. Unfortunately due to the number of participants we have today, we are unable to take questions using the video function of Zoom. But, we would really strongly encourage you to use the Chat icon, which you can find on your bottom menu bar if you'd like to ask any questions of our speakers. If you do decide to ask a question, it'd also be super nice if you could consider letting us know where in the world you are right now. 'Cause it's always really interesting to hear where our audiences are. You might like to adjust your camera view to Speaker view and also you may also notice that your microphone is currently muted and we'd really appreciate it if you keep it that way. The final thing that I just wanted to go through would be that if you happen to have any tech problems or there's a last minute family emergency, don't worry we're recording the session and we're going to put it up on our social media channels soon after the event. So, if you'd like to see it again in full you can follow us on Facebook, Instagram or Twitter using the handle @portraitau. So, without further ado I'd like to hand over to our Manger of Access and Learning, Krysia who will be introducing our speakers today.

- Hello everyone, and welcome. Welcome to Matilda Naabami: Thou shall/will see me/us.

- Dr. Matilda, thank you.

- Ah-hmm. I acknowledge the traditional custodians of this land and pay my respects to the elders, past, present and emerging. I also acknowledge the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples who are present here today. Here on site and as part of our virtual community. And, I'm really delighted to be introducing Dr. Matilda House and Brenda L Croft here on Ngambri-Ngannawal Ngunnawal country. Dr. Matilda House is one of the elders of this country, a proud Ngambri-Ngunnawal women who has dedicated her life to the pursuit of social justice for Indigenous people in the wider community. She's a tireless supporter of the Aboriginal Tent Embassy back when it was established in 1972. And, helped to establish the Aboriginal Legal Service in Queanbeyan in the 1980s. And, has served as a member of the Aboriginal Justice Advisory Committee. Dr. House has also a long and respected association with the ANU and she was instrumental in establishing the Tjabal Indigenous Higher Education Centre in association with the Indigenous students on campus in 1989. And, she received an honorary doctorate from the ANU in 2017. Matilda is a member of many Canberra and Queanbeyan Indigenous committees and organisations. And as noted, by then ACT Chief Minister, Jon Stanhope in naming her 2006 Canberra Citizen of the Year. And, I quote, "It is hard to think of any organisation involving Indigenous interests with which she has not been involved." And, powerfully so.

- Thank you.

- And, Brenda L Croft is from the Gurindji, Malngin, Mudburra people's from the Victoria region of the Northern Territory of Australia and Anglo-Australian, German, Irish, Chinese heritage.

- That's for my mum.

- Yeah, no, claim it all, absolutely. She's been involved in the Australian First Nations and broader contemporary arts and cultural sector as an artist, arts administrator, curator, educator and consultant for over three decades. Brenda lives and works in Canberra on Ngambri-Ngannawal Ngunnawal country where she is Associate Professor, Indigenous Art History and Curatorship at the Centre for Art History and Art Theory, School of Art and Design, College of Arts and Social Sciences Australian National University. That's a long title.

- Sorry.

- No, no, no need to apologise, it's great. And, she is completing her doctoral research through the National Institute for Experimental Arts at UNSW Art and Design. And Brenda, is the creator of this extraordinary and powerful portrait of Dr. Matilda House. And, we're delighted that you're going to both tell us about it. So, over to you both.

- Thank you.

- Thank you.

- Thanks Krysia. Well I must first pay my respects to Dr. Auntie Matilda House here and also custodians of this region Ngambri-Ngannawal Ngunnawal peoples and I feel very privileged to be able to live and work here. But, it's just been such an honour to be able to have your image selected for the National Photographic Portrait Prize. And, you've heard why, she's completely deserving of being photographed, so. This is weird because I haven't done something like this before and I've know Auntie Matilda since, when did I first meet you, I was really little.

- Yeah.

- I met you through my dad.

- Yeah. Yeah, I've known this very proud Gurindji woman through her father, who I worked with in the 70s and 80s, the 90s at the Department of Aboriginal Affairs. It was then over at in the MLC Tower in Woden. Her father was a very, very powerful person that I knew. And, it was him who introduced me to, then about the Stolen Generation. Because you know, even though I was part of that I didn't realise how much that Joe Croft, in his life had gone through.

- Mm.

- And, after being, talking a lot to your dad, who was a very, very good mentor as well. And, it's not only me but there's a lot of people working in that department that he was also mentoring without knowing what the word was in them days. He was a mentor and I know his old mate, Charlie Perkins used to always make him go down and make sure that all of us were right and we always had to maintain our vigilance about what we would actually doing in the Department of Aboriginal Affairs and that is what Joe Croft was doing. Making sure that we knew what we were there for. But, through the years have gone by I've been part of Brenda's life for such a long, long time. And, I'm very happy and also, I have an affinity with people from not only Gurindji but to the Larrakia people who I'd met in them years gone by, or the Lee family for instance. They were going there, he was to the ANU.

- Mm-hm, mm-hm.

- And, then through all the work that we were doing and then I happened to meet another girl from around that way, Francesca. And, all her life she has been here maintaining the well-being through art and everything else for Aboriginal people, as well. So with Brenda, I have accumulated quite a few people who I am very proud to walk with today. When we first got together about this photo that's at the back of me here, I just thought nothing is ever gonna come of this.

- Because I'm sitting there you know, in this little dark room what the hell's going on, you know. But, here I was doing the things that I was ordered to do by Brenda. And, she's a very powerful, powerful Gurindji woman and just as well she had a lot of tucker there on the day. 'Cause it was going fast. And, of course we had a great time. Each individual when they went in, it took time and that's what I really appreciated Brenda, what you had done, you took time. And you know, people had travelled.

- Mm.

- You know, from down the South Coast, you know from Sydney as well. And, you gave them the best time to do the things that you wanted out of that vision that you had yourself, how this would turn out. And, I just took it for granted that it's just a photo. But, I was wrong. And, through that, and through that sitting down yarning up with all those around the table, it was just magic.

- Mm.

- Aboriginal people you know, just sitting around this table at the ANU, at the art centre, and yarning up and having a cup of tea and everyone was so relaxed and that was the whole thing that got me. Was everybody was relaxed, you know. And, some brought all their grandchildren. And, nieces and nephews just to calm them all down. But, they didn't need it because everything was there ready for us to have a cup of tea, lunch and as much as what the kids could eat. So you know, it was a real family.

- Mm, mm.

- Situation that I was looking at. And, I just never realised that a photo like this would've come out of it. Because---

- Well, that's the first time you've seen it, isn't it, today?

- Yeah, that's the first time. But, I remember looking at it, at a little one that you showed me and, one of my kids said to me. They said, "Why are you so black?" And, I said, "Be proud." "Be proud." you know because that's what it's all about. And, that's what she captured on the day. And, I can assure you Brenda, my parents, grandparents and great, great grandparents you know, my mob that came from here, they would be ever so proud to look at that and to know that you know, being part always of something that another person is doing to you know, to put me in a place on the land you know, Black Harry. To do that, it's just something that never happened before and will it ever happen again, you know? Because, when an artist can do things like this and you can do that once, it's very hard to come up with and slam dunk another one, you know?

- But, that was part of working with people like yourself and your also your granddaughter, Leah who's here.

- Yeah.

- And, the group of women and girls over a period of a week and working with people like Prue, who helped me greatly and having the facilities, at the Canberra School of Art to do that. I think with photography I've always, it's about the relationship you have with the people that you're photographing. So, it's not just kind of whipping you in in front of the camera and then taking the photo and then you go on your way. It is about allowing the relationship that exists between the people that you're photographing and developing a relationship with people too that you haven't met before, and people that I love and respect. And so, whenever I look at you, I see all the people around you that we've known. My brother, Lindsey.

- Yeah.

- My dad.

- Yeah.

- I mean---

- Tim.

- The first thing we said talking outside was how we wish our parents were still here so we could have conversations with them. 'Cause there's always things I think of that I'd like to be able to talk about with, you know with my dad. And, living on Ngambri-Ngunnawal country I'm always aware of the people I've met here who are no longer here.

- Mm.

- And, how lucky we were you know, to have a chance to meet all those First Nation's peoples who came through Canberra in the early days of Department of Aboriginal Affairs and Aboriginal Development Commission. And, as you get older, for me anyway I think of the generations before like all your mob you know, I feel I can feel them around when I'm looking at this country here. I always feel that presence and feel really grateful to be able to live here.

- Yeah.

- And, that's what I wanted to try and capture in the photograph. And, it's the technique that actually makes you look so black, because it's a particular technique.

- I know, I love it.

- That comes out of collodion wet plate processing. 'Cause it's a UV technique and so it shows everything. And, that for me is it doesn't hide anything. It's not about Photoshopping. It's not about making people look something that they're not. It's about showing everything that you've lived through, all that you've learnt. And, even in younger people you can see that the way they've been photographed because it's a slow, it's a lovely slow process and we do everything so quickly today. I mean, weirdly that's one of the things I've really enjoyed about COVID-19 restrictions is having to slow down you know, and just stopping, having to stop and think about things a lot more than just this rushing through everything. And, I only took three photographs of you on that day. Most people I took five, six, sometimes more. But, as soon as I saw that one I knew that was it. That was the slam dunk one.

- Lucky me.

- What did you think when you first saw the little tintype of it when I brought that out of the dark room after Prue and I processed them?

- Oh look Prue, I was trying to find some words, Prue. That day because you were there to support each and every one of us. And, the strength that you had to get us through that. Because, they were very challenging because, sometimes we couldn't, we just, we were talking too much you know, with Kathy Craigie there 'cause she'd talk, talk, talk, talk. And then, you've got Eddie, talk, talk, talk, talk. And, we just didn't wanna get up half of the time and then all of a sudden Prue and Brenda would come in and say, "I think we've gotta go in there now." So, we were so comfortable in ourselves with what was happening. But, once we got in that dark room it was just---

- Mm.

- How's this gonna work?

- Mm, was it, did it feel confronting 'cause you're stuck in front of a huge camera?

- Yeah.

- With lights.

- Yeah.

- Was it, did it---

- But no, it felt great. Yeah, no, I couldn't feel anything that would make me walk back out of the room and say, "Oh you know, stuff this, I'm going." I had a good rapport in that room with yourself and the others. And, I knew Prue was around just in case we needed water or anything else like that.

- Well, we couldn't have done it without Prue 'cause Prue was the technical whizz.

- Yeah.

- I had the idea about how I wanted to do it.

- Yeah.

- And, I'd done wet plate processing before but, to be able to work in partnership with somebody and have the access to fantastic facilities over at the School of Art was just amazing, to be able to do that. That's why we, I think we ended up producing over 100 in that week. We had about seven different, maybe eight different groups of people come through. So, it really, it sounds like it was a bit of a production line, which is why we had so many people there.

- It didn't feel like it.

- So, you can be talking with each other. And, I loved that, just listening to everybody telling stories and you know, thinking about your own lives.

- Yeah, and reading all the books. Yeah, it was great.

- Because you, can you give us a little bit of background about your earliest memories of growing up and coming to Canberra, your earliest memories of coming to Canberra?

- Oh look, I was coming here even when I was a tiny, little girl. I'd travel over with my grandparents from the Aboriginal Mission in Yass. It was called 'Hollywood', far from being Hollywood I can assure you. But, my grandparents were always doing domestic things in people's places and my grandmother used to, would get in with the horse and sulky and my grandfather would bring us over here and we'd be, we'd camp up on Flinders Way, which is now a registered site.

- Mm.

- Where Aboriginal people used to come and camp. And, my grandfather was also a stockman. And he did work for Mr.Russell who had cattle up there on Red Hill. So yeah, I've been coming here since then. And, even before I got married I was coming here, to be with my husband, my you know, 'cause he lived in a boarding house, used to sneak in. And this is how my, not knowing how much this country was meaning to me.

- Mm, mm.

- You know, not knowing how much it was meaning to me. Because, at the end of the day after my grandparents used to talk to me about this place.

- Mm, mm.

- And, when we was you know, a little girl at the camp site, this Red Hill Campsite, just down from Boys Grammar and there's a creek there running around it. And, that's what drew us, my grandparents to camp there at that site, because it was running water.

- Mm, mm.

- This running water and, course I'd had to help didn't I, to take the horse down to get a drink of water and help my grandfather, which I thought was why are we hobbling the horses, you know, putting stuff on 'em. 'Cause he doesn't wanna run away 'cause we have to walk all the way back to Yass. So, that was my part of growing up in that era when my grandparents came here and worked. And then much, much later my own father came here as well, and worked. So you know, this affinity with a family line that's going on and on you know, with my great grandfather, Black Harry, who worked at Tharwa, at the, what's now called Cuppacumbalong but, it was part of the De Salis family and that. And, how I know all that, well because, the De Salis family had a diary and they wrote in it nearly every day, as they did in them days. A lot of white people, if blacks were there working for them they used to put it in a diary and that's how we know. And, we discovered that over at the National Library.

- Library, yeah.

- And how we lucky we were for those, the De Salis' to do that. So, they must have had a lot to do with Aboriginal people there as well, because my grandfather lived and worked there for them for so long. You know, and then, till he met my great grandmother, Ellen and then later on after they had some children they moved back to Yass.

- Mm.

- You know, because, you know they needed to be where their other grandchildren were, as well so. But, I've thoroughly have been part of the land for so long and even when going to, in the 1980s, 87, I think or nine that we put Tjabal up. And, that was a long, long time ago, quite a few decades. But, that was my growing a part of it as well. My daughter, Michelle, she was part of that opening as well of Tjabal.

- Over at the ANU, yeah.

- Yeah.

- Yup

- Yeah, so, you know some great people that was there. Sammy Whipman and Davey Johnson and lots of other people and now we have a wonderful girl over there now, Anne Martin that's there. And you know, I'm surrounded by such wonderful, wonderful people like yourself and you know, Francesca and all of that mob and others. That I, but with you I've always had this great affinity because I can always just ring you up and you know, get a feed or whatever.

- And, tell me off.

- Yeah, yeah we do.

- So you know, and have this great rapport with, you have with this country. Because, you practically, you did you grew up here.

- Mm, mm.

- You grew up on this land, with a beautiful mother and a wonderful father. And you know, a man who finally got to meet his family. You know, after all them years, as a grown man, he met his family you know, after he was taken away from Stolen Generations though. You know, a lot of happiness came through this country and stayed here and a lot of terrible stuff. In '72 when the Tent Embassy was set up. It was my brothers and four beautiful black men that came down from Sydney, you know Bertie Williams, who was part of our Williams clan. You know, Tony Coorey and, the other two. You know, and everybody called it 'The Tent'. But, they didn't even have a tent. Because, the next day when it was raining someone bought them out an umbrella.

- Beach umbrella.

- Beach umbrella. So, there it was the Tent Embassy was born. There you go, so. And, it's still there today but it's, I feel that we're still missing a lot of the things that happened that we fought for for that day in '72. When you know, we had a terrible time with the police and trying to maintain something which isn't far from here, you know and---

- Well, you were just speaking up there at the Black Lives Matter---

- Yeah, I was---

- Rally, that your granddaughter organised.

- I was speaking up there with my granddaughter, Leah and others, you were there, but way at the back with Christopher. But you know, when we talk about Black Lives Matter I went to that place and I've been there and know that how Aboriginal men and women have suffered.

- Mm.

- Through the brutality of life that colonialistic values, what they claim have got values, were put to Aboriginal people. And, the greatest shame that I find is when you know that an Aboriginal woman when taken into custody you know, they just don't come out alive. A woman doesn't come out alive.

- Mm, mm.

- And, that's the saddest part of how I feel in my life when I know that a woman went into jail and never came back alive.

- Well, that was part of the inspiration behind this series was Barangaroo. One of the First Nation's women to be---

- Yeah.

- Recorded in the colonial records who was, she was the second, she was noted as being the second wife of Bennelong but we could say that he was her second husband as well. And, she was such a staunch Cammeraygal women she was renown for telling the colonists off all the time and refusing to wear European clothes.

- No.

- Wouldn't wear European clothes, died shortly after giving birth to her and Bennelong's child. And, now we have a precinct in Sydney named after her but who really knows who she was. So, she was the inspiration for me to create this work and the series that I've been working on with other Aboriginal women that I know. So, it's that thing of constantly remembering who has been before us, and honouring the people who are here now and thinking about the people who are going to come. And, for me working especially with women, friends who I, you know I don't have direct sisters, but these people I consider my sisters, my aunties. You know, I have so much love and respect for you, because I've known you since I was a kid. And, when I look at you I see my dad and I see my brother.

- Yeah.

- And you know, seeing the love that you have for Lea that comes through in those photographs. And so, it was just such a privilege to have the work selected for here on your country.

- Thank you.

- And, to be in this place and I've just felt kind of overwhelmed by how people have responded to the image. And, I hope we'll get to show the other ones too that were taken in that series.

- Yeah.

- But, you just look, that's you. It just captures you so beautifully. And you know, that's the reason I love it, not because I took it. Just that I see you so strong in that image.

- Mm, I see me, too. But, the other thing that I wanna say is that being involved with other women from Victoria. They travelled up here to see me and we started doing possum cloaks and possum rugs. And, it's through other people that journey from other country in Australia that come to see me and they want to do something together with me. And, I find that very, very old hardly, just so good. And, it's not just that I have this affinity too with other Aboriginal women from all over Australia. But, I do also have with a non-Aboriginal girls that I know from the ANU. And, it's through them that you know, Annique and Kerry-Lee are always there for me to help me through some things like art and whatever. And so, it's having those contacts and them making time and sparing the time you know, like we had with Brenda and also with other, the girls from Victoria. Absolutely, it's absolutely so lovely when you sit down with the women and we talk about the you know, the things of how proud we are to be black.

- Mm.

- And, how proud we are for our things that we do will be passed on and on and on. And, that's how we will maintain you know, the sense of belonging, the sense of belonging, you know. At the end of the day we can look, not look at us in ways that people would think, "Oh well you know, it's just another black woman's story." But you know, it's not like that. People have gotta take a stand and have a yarn and have a cup of tea with people. There's nothing wrong with approaching someone who you want to have a yarn with because this is how things happen. I mean, I just always, I talk to anybody. I don't know what about, but we all end up talking about something. Even about dogs, I mean, I've got layers of my life.

- Yeah.

- Layers and layers of it you know, I've travelled the world. I showed my dogs at Crufts. I showed my dogs at Madison Square Garden. You know, so, being that part of my life all them years and years ago which I don't have anymore but I still have a dog. 'Cause you know, you can't be a black fellow without a dog.

- You know, her name's Jetta. You know, and Jetta is, a black Staffie and, she rules the roost but in the last few months she packed her bags and left and lived with my daughter. And, I said to her, "Are you coming home?" "No." that's what they do to you these dogs. You know, doesn't matter, she's still my Jetta. And, all the work that I've seen happening here with Aboriginal women you know, it's people coming from all over like I said. Just having Vicky and Lee---

- And Trina.

- And Amanda, being here with me on country making our possum cloaks, it's just wonderful.

- Mm.

- Because, to have that closeness and that affinity to always maintain that we'll always be together no matter what. And, that's how I felt when I was with Brenda and Prue of how we all did our little sessions together. And we moving on and with my other mates Kerry-lee and that. So, I have all of this stuff but, all these things, it's not stuff, but that's how I talk. But, it's all the things that surround me and I love it, you know. I guess when you're 75 you get that old, you'll love anything.

- But, at the end of the day I really do appreciate the kindness and just walking, still walking together. And, that's what we've gotta do, you know. We're not gutted fish, we can still maintain our dignity and talk about how we want to be. Brenda, and I can't thank you enough for what you have done. You have done a marvellous job with everything you've done, living here and being away, when you were down at Boomalli and those places. You made a difference. And, you always will. Look at the difference you've made today?

- Yeah, but it's because of people like you. It's because of everyone who's gone before you. It's all the people who help you. You don't do anything alone and you know, there's such joy in spending time with people like yourself and the other you know, Cheryl's mom who passed away.

- Yeah.

- Who was in the photo shoot and it's such an honour to spend even a small amount of time with people and to hear stories you know, people trusting you enough to share stories and, if that's all I get to do the rest of my life. And for you know people, Christopher being able to meet people like yourself. We're getting a wind up, aren't we?

- Did we talk too long?

- The time has flown and it's been wonderful just to listen to you telling us about relationships and community and connection.

- Thank you.

- It's been lovely to listen. And, also that close relationship is really evident I think in the portrait.

- It is.

- It's, you can tell you love each other and that's what we need more of too, I think.

- Ah yeah.

- Don't you reckon? Anyway, I'd like to, Jule's gonna read out some of the comments, they've been streaming in and we'll keep them as a record for you. Because, there have been very powerful comments coming from people who have been Zoomed in.

- Yeah.

- But, before we do that I do want to thank both of you very, very much for taking the time.

- Thank you for having us.

- And, yarning with us, while you're yarning together. So, it's been really, giving us the opportunity to listen. And, I think you've stressed the importance of that to listen to each other, okay.

- Yeah, I'm just glad it happened.

- It did I know, we had a false start did we?

- Yeah, we did didn't we?

- A big shut down right as it was all gonna happen.

- Yeah, in March.

- Yeah, but thanks for hanging in there.

- That was really good. Okay Jule, I'll just---

- Thank you. I just wanna share some of the love that's been coming in on the Zoom. I know it's a very awkward strange thing. We have a few people here in the gallery which is nice to see some human faces in the flesh, so to speak. But, we do have a lot of people actually online who have tuned in which is really lovely as well. So, I just wanted to make sure that their voices come to both of you. Tracker Australia says that, "Matilda, you were the welfare officer in DAA when they arrived on your country and they were homeless once and your daughters took them in and they've never forgotten that, so."

- Who was this?

- A person who's name is Tracker Australia online. But, I'm sure they'll know who they are.

- From Alice Springs.

- Yeah.

- That's awesome.

- It's Tracker, thank you.

- Amanda Reynolds is sending love and respect to you.

- That's great.

- And, Brenda and they're always inspired by both of you and they're so happy to be here via Zoom.

- Oh, great.

- Victoria Firth-Smith says, "It's an incredible work and story and thanks to everybody for being here today." Jane Margots says, "Thank you for sharing the wonderful photograph and interview featuring these two inspirational women." Merici College, Merici, "Thank you on behalf of the staff and students at Merici College. Your insight is inspirational."

- That's up there on, round Limestone Avenue.

- Yeah, they're looking forward to seeing your work in person, that's from Jamie.

- All right.

- April Phillips says, "Thank you to Matilda and Brenda for being such a grounding force." Ah, if there is time for questions we have a question, that's great. Then what she would like to ask, "In this portrait I see so much strength, how can we continue to find strength and speak strong?"

- I don't know, just be yourself and maintain your identity always and be proud. And, that can only happen if you've got the people around you to do that. And, what wonderful people and I can't thank each, and you know, I forgot to thank the Portrait Gallery. You know, for having me today and of course Brenda.

- You don't have to thank me. I think what we've seen with recent weeks and particularly I know how proud Auntie Matilda was of the young people involved in The Black Lives Matter Rally here in Canberra which included her granddaughter, Lea. And, hearing so many articulate young people and I know that was the case right around the country.

- Yeah.

- That genie's not going back in the bottle. So, it's having to listen to young people coming through and providing them with a space to put their views forward. And, rather than look for division which seems to be the overriding thing so much today is look for commonalities and providing space for people. So, I think that's the biggest thing is that, it's that capacity to listen and provide space and don't tell people what they should be doing.

- One last question Auntie Matilda. You had spoken about the importance of having a yarn and the question is I wonder if there's someone that you'd very much like to have a yarn with but you've not had the chance to?

- Oh, it's just like asking me like they say in the, in that magazine, what's it called? That Aboriginal one?

- The Koori Mail.

- The Koori Mail, they have a little section there saying, who would you like to have dinner with?

- Ah yeah.

- No one ever wants to have dinner with me.

- We're all around the the campfire, now who would you like to have dinner with round the campfire? No one ever mentions me. You can, next time. Yeah, no, about, what'd you say now?

- Is there anybody that you would like to have a yarn with but you've never had, you haven't yet had the opportunity to or you haven't had the chance to have a yarn with them?

- Well, I've had yarns and I've sat around and talked to not only women but men who came to this country and I walked through a lot of things with them as well as women who came here. So, it's a real hard ask to say, "Who would I like to have you know, something with because, you know, I'd like to just sit down and just have something with a whole bunch of people, you know. A whole bunch of people you know, who have walked the walk and talked the talk because I know that you could never ever say who you'd like to sit down and have that with. Because, at the the end of the day even the people who were here today you know, what a marvellous time, just to have people like this sitting around or having a yarning with as well. But, through it you know, if they was alive, I'd like to have it with my great, great grandfather, Black Harry.

- I knew you were gonna say him.

- Yeah. That's it.

- Thank you so much. I just wanted to say thank you to everybody online who came along to see the programme today. We're going to be bringing you many more of these programmes in the coming months. So, if you'd like to keep up to date with what's coming up, please follow us on social media with the handle @portraitau or jump on our website portrait.gov.au and sign up for our email newsletters.

- [Matilda] You can't there's so much to talk about.

- And also, while you are there check out all the resources that we have on the fantastic National Photographic Portrait prize which is currently on display. And, all the other resources we have for you to experience portraiture from home. Thank you so much and until the next programme take care, bye-bye.

- Thank you.