MEL to LAX

- Today, I'm very lucky to be able to introduce you to John Tsiavis who's gonna be in conversation with our curator, Penny Grist. John and penny welcome and thank you so much for joining us.

- Thank you.

- Thanks to you. Now this is a very exciting programme for me because I get to catch up with one of the photographers who I met when I first started working at the Portrait Gallery. So I first met John in 2014 when I was putting together a show called Promo Portraits from Prime Time. And it's been really fantastic to reconnect with John who's been all sorts of places since we were working on that show together. Should we just dive right in, John?

- Yeah, bring it up.

- So what we're gonna do today is we're gonna take you through a little bit of an outline of John's career few works from the collection, but we're really gonna focus on what John's been doing in the last sort of 10 years, and then the last sort of two and three years as he's been working in LA and in Mexico. So that's where we're gonna go with this. It's gonna be quite a journey so let's crack on. So John, let's just... give way of background and a bit of introduction. Let's just talk about the beginning of your career as a photographer.

- Sure, so I taught myself photography at a high school because I wanted to get into an advertising course, but I didn't get into that course. And they recommended that I go to the advertising photography course as the whole. I went in and I was lucky enough to have been accepted but I kind of always, I had the intentions to swap over and go back into advertising. But once I really kind of was able to shoot every day and experience, well I got to work as a photographer with shooters photographer. I just kinda found that became my passion and my love. So, and from there I was approached by James Scott who had just produced shine to be an unset stills photographer for her film head on. And so that was a real... Yeah, so that was in 1997 while I was at university.

- And let's put up Robert, let's bring up that image, that staff. Yeah, these family. So tell us about this image and how that this was important in your career John?

- [John] Right, so this was shot for my first year university project. So a family portrait, so it was shot at my grandmother's garage and so I get a little emotional because we've lost a few people in my family over the last couple of years, so yeah sorry. Well, we shot it... Sorry I've got a little thrown. So Jane saw this portrait and then thought that it would be great to represent the great families that were in her film.

- [Penny] And jump over to the next one Robert while we're there. Tell us about the link between, I suppose, that moment and Jane seeing that portrait from your uni, like from while you were still at uni and this portrait which is one of my favourites in the national Portrait Gallery Collection of writer, Christos Tsiolkas. Tell us how that those two ideas connected.

- [John] Well, I shot head on during my second year of uni and I was given that it was an open project to be able to shoot whatever we wanted for our third year project. So I decided to reconnect with everyone that worked on the film and that loaded Christos book kind of meant a lot to me. So I approached him who was living in Canberra at the time and he gave me an afternoon where he just come out and hung out with me for a day. I asked him how we want it to be represented. And he threw me some references and one of them was a Fassbender's corral. And so I thought there was all that coloured light and there was a kind of there's a danger it's those images and also to what I guess the his novel and also head on as well. And so I shot this on my own and it's kind of funny because the image on the right has, I don't know if you could say those are red bounce board and I had a shooting that through some netting and that my hand that's my... the shadows of my hand against his face. So I don't know how I did it but I was somehow casting a shadow and shooting at the same time.

- [Penny] Ooh that's brilliant, how did you know about this?

- [John] Its only live shoot Penny.

- [Penny] So let's take a little bit of a step through the next few stayed like the next little bit of your career. So that introduction to like, I suppose, entertainment practise in photography from head-on went on to other things, should we flip through the next few slides? So yeah, take us through the next little bit of your career there.

- [John] So it was kind of lucky enough to have... I was lucky enough to have met a lot of people who then when chopper was being made. And that was, I think that we shot that in 1999, I was there was the same distributors. And so I was called up, I just finished uni and I was really unsure about actually kind of wanting to shoot on a chopper film. I didn't actually know how that was gonna work out, but it actually then ended up being the image that really kind of made my career, that image became running and it's quite an iconic film. And so from that, it really helped me along to open doors for me in the Australian film industry. So I was lucky enough to have shot head-on chopper and then worked on the TV show, a separate life of us. And they were my first three jobs, which I think that kind of piqued my Australian film career 'cause it was... I worked with quite a few films, which weren't kind of as good.

- [Penny] And jump over two Robert, the rover as well.

- [John] The Rover I think was also, that was actually one of the last films I shot in the Australian desert before I left for America nine years ago. And that was a really great experience because I'd worked on Dagny shards, film, animal kingdom. I did some work with them and they gave me again an open brief where they said, just come for two days, do whatever you like. And the image on the right was actually the view out of my hotel room. And that was the morning light with guide peers and I think it was only like one frame of him walking away.

- [Penny] Wow! So this is what's called chaot for film and you go on set and you shoot this or do special studio shoots while the film is being made. Can I just ask it's how has that work doing that work and especially so early in your career affected your style as a photographer?

- Well, I guess working on with working with actors and in that kind of high pressure environment, your guess you have to be really decisive, really have to understand the scenes, what the intention is. And it also still should also tell an Emmy a story. And so that's really carried on through my work, whether it's the way I direct a fashion shoot, the way I shoot my portraits it's yeah, but I kind of everything comes from an idea or a concept or a story.

- And I think that's really that's so in the images we'll keep saying and in your work that's something that's it's really clear. It's really come through as an integral part of how you approach portraiture. Robert, let's just go into it. We just put this one in done because people fans, so also your work across television, this was a great, a great favourite among visitors to the online and the real life love stories exhibition recently. So thanks to you for that one. Let's just maybe Robert into the next one. This is one of your put photographic portrait prize entries because we're celebrating the ratio of the living memory, national photographic portrait prize for this year. Just take us through the process and how it felt to, I suppose do a portrait photograph of a iconic photographer.

- [John] Yeah, well, I was actually commissioned by art bank to take her Petty's portrait. She was living in Los Angeles and you know, I've always grown up with Polly's portraiture or photography, I should say. So it was a bit of an intimidating experience, I went up to her house and she's a lover of fashion. So I think the first thing we did was just go through Polly's wardrobe and so I guess that's kind of like, what I love about being a photographer is that you just get invited into people's worlds sometimes. And this was actually interesting. A lot of my work has changed so much in the way that I approach it. I used to always, I think I came from the 90s' I think was so much about everything was about lighting everything and now more about natural light. So this was actually a light spilling through Polly's kitchen, but through a skylight. And so I wanted to kind of play with the idea of creating her into being a sculpture. And that was the choice of her clothes, her clothes, and you know, also her gestures movement and the choice of the chair.

- [Penny] Oh, that's interesting. Interesting choice to sort of in a way of recognising that sort of iconic status of that artists too. In now we're just going to share two of our other favourites from the collection before we move off on your travels. So Robert, can you pull up the Jacki Weaver and the Tanle? Just tell us, tell us about taking this portrait of you know, incredible another icon.

- [John] Well, again, it was one of those experiences where to be asked to shoot something feet, to be commissioned by you guys for the 2020 exhibition was like a career highlight for me. So I took it so seriously and also to take someone's portrait for it is a huge responsibility that I feel how I represent somebody. And it was hard because shooting an actors portrait that doesn't belong any way or isn't in context with a character just is really hard. who is an actor, if they're not in a fashion magazine or how do you approach that portrait? So for me it was wanting to, I guess it was about how to set the same way with Jacki and photograph her. I couldn't give her a character to play. I just didn't really know how to do it. So for me, it was actually kind of idea. I wanted something really dramatic Shakespearian. I worked with Jacki on animal kingdom and I know I felt the power of her presence. So that was something I really wanted to represent and capture, but it was it's actually a really intense image. And we all like to... it was like, I guess it is flatter. I hope it's flattering, but it was really kind of harsh. And I did have other images that I wanted to present to her, but this was the one that I connected with the most. And it was really amazing. 'Cause I was nervous when I met up with her and we had lunch together and I had talked way too much as I do. My partner just said to just shut up, John, show us the photo. And they were both really excited when they saw it.

- [Penny] Over to the next one as well. So this was another one of you will works for that same exhibition. Tanle, very different career, very different achievements that you were representing there. And this is a work that really has to be seen in the flesh, isn't it? It's quite an experimental work sculpturally for you.

- [John] Yeah, I wanted this to be a bit more experiential. I knew that people would engage with Jacki's portrait and also knowing there's another 19 amazing Australians being represented in the exhibition. I wanted people to really stand in front of town's portrait and take it in. So I kind of divide... I worked with a lot working with collaborate, like in collaboration. So I brought in three or four other people to work with and so I found an Australian scientist, which has created so like a new mirror, a sub material, which we covered a Lightbox in and then used like a security screens that you see often on screen on what it is saying in a bank that's very American. It's not very Australian, they receive one, but yeah, so you had to actually start in front of the portrait and then it's a mirror. So you also look at yourself when you look at her. And that was kind of about touching on tonnes of my experience in Australia and the way we went to the same high school we found out when we met up in San Francisco and we both experienced quite a bit of racism. She had was at the school on a scholarship and had to leave because of the racism she faced.

- Yeah, it's interesting. Those conversations that you must have with your subjects as you're working through their portrait. And so I think it's something that connects really, really fascinating, a really fascinating way to the later parts of your career as well, to the more recent work you've been doing in terms of filmmaking we'll see later. Let's keep travelling on because we've what happened next, John, if we got... if Robert has that next lot of slides, we can look at the work you did that kind of crosses that fine art, commercial practise of yours. And tell us a little bit about these images.

- [John] Well, I guess we discussed, do you wanna meet her to present some images that were instrumental to me in my career? And this was a series of images that I worked in collaboration with an art director who would put on gay potluck parties that were geared towards gay men. And we really wanted to shift what is seen as those desirable images or those images that engage with men that were always kind of beefcake really basic images. So these were to advertise parties. And so we created, just went off and created these art series that really shifted my work from a commercial to then kind of being recognised more in I guess, in the art world. And I tell you, take it a little again for people to just look at my work differently.

- [Penny] It's like three, the next few of these folks, they are very much like tell us about how that those two sides of your practise interact for you. How do you feel about those different elements of what you do?

- [John] I love being able to do it, any everything. So, I mean, give me like, I love portraiture. That's, I know how people I'm very instinctual, but give me a fridge or a car or an object I have no idea how to photograph it. So by shooting, by merging my commercial work with my artwork is really important to me because it feeds into each other where my commercial work has allowed me to be a working photographer for 26 years now. It then allows me to go off and invest my time and my money into creating my aunt artwork that then in turn cycles into, I guess, inspiring or connecting with say art directors or other people who would then hire me commercially, this is a really interesting image. This is another really wonderful time I had just finished the beige trough shoot. And Phillip Tracy approached us who was coming to Melbourne, it would've been probably 10 years ago now for the, not for Melbourne cup. And I got a call from his PR agent saying, he really loves your work. Can you please meet you? So he turned up to the studio and we had just finished shooting the trough images. And we had made all those masks and props and everything, and he turned up for what we thought he was gonna come by for a drop-in. And he didn't say he left after I think he was there for six hours. We then became really good friends and he wanted me to work with him to art director, fashion shoot. And so I struck a deal that if I did that, he would give me a day of his time and his hats. And so my team or our friends, we all got together and pull the shoot together. And I'm really proud of it because yeah, I mean, all the objects are found objects, plastic and it was just a little fun moments to have been to had with people.

- That is a stunning image. It sounds like that one's a bit popular among our guests as well. Now, how did the series laid to you going to LA? There's a connection there isn't it?

- Well, do you mean say like from trough or no, I kind of guess it kind of LA got bit to the states was always on the cards. And so I was kind of had lived my life, my partner and I to be able to kind of split in a couple of weeks. And that's what happened when I agents signed me and we pretty much packed up within like a month and we were gone. So we, yeah, we've been there for now for nine years. And so I living there, it's kind of opened up my work in ways I didn't ever think, I was kind of considered myself here as an entertainment photographer but over there I had to start from scratch. I couldn't give my photography away for free at times I would approach publicists or anyone. And it was just so hard, it was pretty hard Like it took probably about two years to just kind of start getting some traction. And I've been lucky, I've kind of done some amazing TV and film work, but what it did open up was it allowed me to be a fashion. Like I've shot more fashion there than I ever did here. It just allowed me to kind of get a start from scratch and just find my new groove in my get it.

- Let's take a look at some of those images Robert, starting with... So this is some a bit more of your entertainment work in LA?

- [John] So this is for a TV show called Chicago fire. So part of that would be doing the poster shooting each of the individual shots. So, it doesn't matter what it is to me. I want my images to be intense and powerful and to have a warn us about them.

- [Penny] Keep going Robert, split three the next few beautiful group shot.

- [John] I do a lot of musicals as well. So this was for phlebotomies as you can say, It's just done for Disney could be about a year or so ago. This is the most popular season this year. This seasons are Real Housewives.

- And so that's your entertainment side of your practise in LA? So when you moved to a new city or when you're discovering a new community, you do that through photography as well don't you? Should we let's go to that next set of images. Tell us about sort of the background of doing this work.

- [John] Well, that a lot of my work was done with a collaborator, a good friend of mine, David Body and he was a stylist. He moved down to the states and together we went off and explored different, I guess, subcultures where they're really interested in youth culture. And so this was something we called it was called LA is burning. And so it was a series on for an editorial where we went off and worked. We would often try to find or people whether it was on social media or kind of really unique actors or sorry, unique models to feature in these. So this was an LA story.

- [Penny] And you did the same way in getting to know Mexico. Tell us about the, I suppose your how did like when in this nine years, did you start travelling to Mexico and working there?

- So my partner I've been going to Mexico for about 15 years but I've only been a week. And then we did a trip together to Mexico city where I did a story for flora magazine with David, where here's a couple of portraits here and these are again on natural light. We scouted the streets for I think three or four days had racks of clothes and we would fight, we had all the models around and we would kind of find spots to shoot them. I'm really proud of this, I love this image I really connect to this.

- [Penny] Yeah, they're beautiful images. And let's keep going while and talk about some of your group portraits. So this is another subculture within LA.

- [John] So I was really lucky, I got a call from a friend who's a photo producer and he wanted me to shoot all the club, kids of LA. And so it started off with a group of 15 and I kind of thought what really makes up a club? It's who works at the door, who pulls the drinks, the DJs. And so the group of 15 ended up being 55 people. And I had--

- [Penny] Robert let's say that 55 people there.

- [John] I had a staircase outside the studio and we literally shot lit and packed up everything within three hours. It was pretty amazing. I'm really proud of this one. So, it was so wonderful that everyone everyone kind of styled, I loved our everyone's personalities. Shown through you knew who wanted to take the attention, who wanted to kind of just proceed into the background a little more. It was great.

- [Penny] It's a particularly amazing skill to be able to do excellent group portraiture like that and for older stay composed and controlled, is that something that you, I suppose, tell us about how you achieve that in your experience doing that?

- [John] I guess for me, it starts off with a composition. So, like for me, it just kind of fell into place. I just knew I could some letters around before I knew where the line was gonna be. I had to really kind of make sure that lighting and then allowing people to then put them in an environment and allow them to move. And that's kind of the most integral thing to me is just once you kind of set people in a space, give them the opportunity because that's when the magic happens.

- [Penny] Absolutely. We've got a few more shots here from your fashion work in your time in LA. we'll just Robert do a flip three days in John or just stop me a few, just tell us about this woven the woven portrait, because we're gonna connect a little bit more with that.

- [John] I guess it's funny that I've now back in Melbourne for a little bit and I was back at my parents' place going through my work when I was a teenager. And it's so interesting to see that and see this work, the woven work where I came up with an idea this is for Esquire magazine. I put my photos through an office shredder and I reworked everything together with a magnifying glass and tweezers. And it's interesting to see how that kind of thing about turning my photos into sculptures or into objects relates back to the work that I did when I was a kid like I would photocopy and I put my images or acetate repaint, paint over the men. It's just really... it was a lovely kind of connection to say how my work's evolved.

- [Penny] And we've got a few more images of your beautiful portrait challenge. Then you keep going Robert. Is still a little bit more of a sample of John's work as he moves through that time. So now we're gonna change talk a little bit. So come back to John and I, beautiful thanks Robert. So in the last two and three, two or three years, you've been living in LA, just paint a picture for us of that experience and how that's changed your practise?

- Well, I guess it's been a pretty tough time. Like everyone else that once the pandemic hit living a creative my work just fell apart. There was nothing happening. Well, the area that I live in happens to be in the centre of LA which when a lot of the protests happened for black lives matter that was like straight was the meeting point. And there were times that we had there was the day that the police ambushed protesters that was only a blocks away. It was kind of a really, I'm not gonna say traumatic, but it was a really kind of rough time for us to live there. We had the national guard machine guns on the street, we had helicopters flying overhead. It was a real kind of that like with living in a Trump America for four years as well as the pandemic and then the protests and just such uncertainty was really, I guess, yeah, it was really kind of hard to kind of live in a world to live in, I should say. And then, and also unemployment. That was pretty hard too. So yeah, that was my a year last year Penny.

- And did that lead to your next body of where?

- Well, interestingly, my partner encouraged me to see like a coach and it's something that I kind of resisted. I didn't really know. There's always times in my career, I always had to pivot, reeducate myself and find something new to do. And so it was really amazing too. She really encouraged me to you find what really kind of connected to me. And it was about collaborations. So collaborating during a time where we all have to isolate was a really hard time for me but I kind of what I did was I approached a friend of mine who is a textile artist. We met through a commercial job and she would wave over photos. And so I approached her and I just thought I had to do something. And it was also a friend of mine. Who's a casting director that we were chatting about, everything that was going on and that we want to just to do a project. And so through that, we decided to do photography series on and feature young activists, people who are putting themselves on the line for their causes. And so from that evolved, what was gonna be a portrait series. I invited a friend to come along and bring a camera and that really put my just kind of like it's kind of a series now, there's a series has evolved from that, where I've gone off and made these short films on activists.

- So Robert let's have a little look at the beautiful textile collaboration.

- Yeah, so actually the people we would go and find them and it was really hard. Flora she lives up in like Costa San Francisco, or drove up and shot her film. She's a dreamer, she's an undocumented person who fights for farmers' rights, who are immigrants and often undocumented people. And so during the pandemic, they were deemed essential workers but they weren't given any rights or given any protections. And so that's she's created a foundation to raise money for them. Chubby is a great friend of mine.

- [Penny] Okay, in a film.

- [John] This is a trans activist who didn't want to be filmed. However, has an amazing story and they use their social media to raise money for their communities, whether it's a hundred dollars for someone to be housed that day or to eat. They're an amazing activist. This is Mellow whom are you gonna meet soon too. And this is Dom, he was at the age of 15. He went to walk with one of my locker Guatemala through Mexico, after his father was killed and so he's an undocumented person in LA.

- Yeah, we have a trait in store for our amazing audience, which is we're gonna play two of your films, your short films. I would call them digital portraiture. If we've got them teed up, Robert, we're gonna start with Mellow.

- If I would have met me 10 years ago, I wouldn't even believe that I, myself, I have changed immensely and I'm still changing every day. I have grown so much and learn so much about myself. It's been hard, but it's been really beautiful and I'm blessed to here.

- [Mel] Hi, my name is Mel or mellow. I'm on the 25 year old chef and activist. And I happened to also be trans mask and non binary. I realised that I was trans separately then me realising that I was non binary, I've always really known that I was non binary because I've never, I've never felt like a girl, but growing up masculine lesbian, we're always asked, do you want to be a guy? And that's why I've never felt like I was trans because I thought that if I transitioned to that meant that I wanted to be a guy, which I never did. And then I met a lot of other trans people and realised that it's a spectrum and that I fit in that spectrum. So that's when I realised that I was trans as well. Face judgement and prejudices all my life. You know what I mean in 2016, when Trump was elected, the day after Trump was elected, I got fired from my job. I was maybe one of two black people working there and definitely the only person. I faced issues with housing because I'm trans. I had already gotten the place and I was actually moving in and then I sent my ID and I met the landlord in person. And so then when I left, one of the roommates texted me and said that the landlord told him, well, while I thought that you, I thought you said that this was a guy. And clearly it's not, I didn't couldn't move in. So I was like, yeah, all sort happened and everything. After that, I don't feel like we should have our rights politicised. Why there needed to be policies for trans people, the fact that they are putting bills in place against us. There's no reason why I should have to fight so hard just to get the healthcare, my medication, or regular that everybody else has you know. The love that I have for myself is growing daily. It's far more than it used to be. what scars make me feel empowered and strong. I really didn't have much love for myself for a very long time. I'm like, I didn't even used to like to look at myself in the mirror. But now I love to, I just want to wake up and wholeheartedly just love life. You know what I mean? And that's something that I'm definitely working towards and I want to help everybody else do that too. That's something big for me. I want everybody else to love their life.

- Working on that film was it hard?

- I was lucky enough to have a friend of mine, Darren. who's an amazing underwater cameraman come and assist me. So yeah, I had to teach myself sound which I'm terrible at but yeah so we directed it. We would have to, we shot that within four hours. And because again, it was during COVID times and everything had to be outdoors. And so Mel chose that spot over looking LA and wanted to be photographed or filmed there. And so we worked our way through a journey for him. So, yeah, so it was just me. I taught myself editing, I taught myself sound. I'm really lucky to have some like amazing friend of mine, Marker who helped me along with the music. And then a couple of other people who kind of helped me with suggestions along the way.

- So let's make chop by now. Tell us about the background of this next film?

- Yeah, so where there was a point we had to just get my partner and I had to get out of LA and so Hamish and I were living in Mexico and we were there for maybe eight months from last September. And I volunteered with... I've met a good friend of mine who worked on the board of an organisation called Casa Huichol which help a lot of the indigenous people or is there some tribes for collegial people to fight to get access to medical maybe optical. yeah sorry.

- It's like different holidays foundation.

- Absolutely. So I went along and in photographs, one of the expeditions up into the mountain. So it was like a two day trip up. It was only there, I guess it was like a week round trip, but it really had a huge impact on me. So I shot some footage for them, which is in this video but I went back and worked with a couple months ago and shot this film with her.

- [Voice Over] My passion comes from the colours. The first time I went to the Sierra it amazed me to see all these costumes and brothers. It was such a party of images, all made with so much patience that it called my soul. They would ride a gas and indigenous tribe that has preserved their ancient traditions. They are also called the Huicholes and they are great artists and visionaries. I've been working with this community for 12 years, but in the beginning when I got there, it was hard. It was hard because the leaders are men and it's difficult for a woman that is not from the community to come and bring a new proposal. I didn't find my place until I found my place with the woman, washing the dishes, making the food in creating way I learned to do embroidery and I found out that there was a big one, their ability of this woman. Well, with all this embroidery work, we found out that they have problem with their site. Through these, we connect with amazing doctors and we made the first campaign of coming to the Sierra and we checked 250 people. And from them, we take a list of 23 to get a surgery for cataracts to recover their side because the people that have cataracts they are blind. Through that we need all the support from their flora weeds, we are moving all the way that we can to find the resources and ways to get this opportunity to more people in La Sierra. This chance for these people to see again, it's everything. They can recover, their autonomy, how they move, their chance to work to create. This project is a seeds for the humanity and that we can fill our hearts with this amazing opportunity to love and to connect and to share. It's bringing light to the dark, people asked me if I have a boyfriend and I tell them that I am in love with an entire community.

- So John, thank you so much for... because everyone is very lucky because where among the first people that John actually shared these films with. So yeah, what's your plans for these amazing cases?

- What plan? I just wanted to create these unencumbered by any constraints of like any publications or anywhere. I just wanted to them and I think interestingly, one of the men that's featured in the film. I mean, I can't speak Spanish. However, we communicated somehow and he asked someone to ask me what I'd done for the Australian indigenous people. And I thought that I haven't lived in Australia for 10 years. And I think I need to tell some straight in stories.

- Now we've got a few more to take you right through the arc of John's career to this point. We've just got a few more images that these are a few from Mexico still aren't they John?

- [John] So while I was in Guadalajara, I think it was such a wonderful time for me. I was also asked to create a story to represent queerness now. And it was for Mexico pride. And I just thought, I want it to create a series about love and about thrift, like the love of friends have for each other whilst showcasing some beautiful clouds.

- [Penny] And to really round it out. Oh yeah, just tell us a little bit about these compilation and this is...yeah

- [John] So this is, again, kind of just working with collaboration with Victoria, that my first trip up into the Sierra Madre is these are some of the portraits I talk in the town. And so Victoria and I feel like we're so aligned in everything that we think that, so she took these portraits and I went over them and sell them to raise some money. It cost something like $650 for someone to be able to get their cataracts operated on, and so there are all these people who have their livelihood is to wave and through their crafts. And so I think it was a lovely, well, that kind of cycle that Victoria's work was able to raise money for their outside.

- And more recently, you've travelled back to Australia, spent some time in quarantine and three last images then it takes us all up to the recent point. So guys here is the next one, this is what a photographer jump over to the next one Robert. This is how a photographer spends two weeks in coating.

- It was either editing or, yeah, I just kinda thought, well, what can I do? And again, I just needed to... I've created a whole series I shot with the group of people, I was with the artists in Guadalajara, there was a butch dance group and so I did a shoot with them in a vacant mannequin factory, which is just like a photographer's dream. And so, yeah, so this was a series that, again hasn't been saying anywhere it's on my computer somewhere pending .

- [Penny] And I think there's one more of them, Robert. And then I mean, that takes us up to now, doesn't it, John? And it's been fantastic for me to catch up with all that you've been doing over the last 10 years really. And it's been quite a journey for our audiences. I think so that's all we have time for. We've reached our destination here, that's been incredible.

- Thank you, it's always an honour to be asked to do anything with you guys and that I love it. Thank you.

- Thank you so much, John, for all that, for sharing that with us today those stories, the two videos particularly we're really moving. And you probably haven't had a chance to catch up with the chat. Needless to say, there hasn't been very many questions because I would have thrown them into the discussion, but I've been absolutely drowned with adoration for your work and people just absolutely adored seeing all of your images and your portraits and your incredible creativity. So thank you so much. And we'll send the chat to you so that all of these people's comments can actually come back and you can bask in that feel good glow that I've been happily basking in when I've done nothing, except introduce the programme. So thank you so much for sharing so much of your time and so much of your work and your passion with us, John. We really, really appreciate it. And thank you to you too, penny, for taking us through the discussion and on the journey of John's work. If anybody else would like to join us for our virtual programmes, as I've said, we're very committed to continuing these where there are certainly become a core part of the national portrait gallery. Thank you so much, Anita, for your little cheer, it's so great and for your support. And a big shout out to Haymitch too, I noticed you coming in for your LA LAX there. Thank you for coming into--

- Hey .

- Please jump on our website, portrait.gov.au to check out all of the programmes that we've got coming up. Next week, we're speaking with Shanghai based photographer Dave Tacon, and the following week, following Thursday, we're speaking with Paris based Australian photographer, Nikki To who also harks from Scotland. So you'll hear some interesting accents on that particular programme. So thank you so much for joining us, please stay safe, stay well and we hope to see you online again very soon. Thank you.

- Thank you.